Church Hill - Allen

Virginia Black History Archives

Church Hill Oral History Project

This is an oral history recording. The narrator is a Mrs. Florine M. Allen, age 84. The place of the narration is 608 1/2 North 31st Street. Mrs. Allen has been a resident of Church Hill, Richmond, Virginia for 82 years. The interview was done by a Miss Linda McGowan, 2504 Glen Lea Avenue, Richmond, Virginia. A Church Hill resident all of her life.

I = Interviewer
N = Narrator

I: I am going to ask you some questions, this is about your family history. Could you give me the names and birthplaces of your parents. You said you were born in Chesterfield, Virginia.

N: In Midlothian.

I: In Midlothian. How long were you out there?

N: Just about three years.

I: And then?

N: My mother moved to Richmond in the 3100 block of Q Street.

I: What were your parents' name?

N: Louis and Rosetta Mack.

I: What was your mother's maiden name?

N: Branch.

I: Branch. So your mother was Rosetta Branch and Rosetta Mack. OK. How long were you all at Q Street?

N: Well, we were there from the time, or well I was small, but I remember we moved various places, my mother in progress of getting settle she was the cook at 23rd and Broad for J. S. Moore, who owned the Dunlap Flour Mill next to the corner at 23rd and Broad. And she cook there and stayed on the lot. And my grandmother, we had a mother who worked and we moved various places but when I was nine years old, we moved at 3111 Q Street, that's where I stayed until after I was married. We lived there from the time I was nine years old. Until after I was married.

I: Well, how many years do you think, what year do you think you moved, you said you moved in at three year old. What year would that have been?

N: About 1902.

I: 1902, OK. How many brothers and sisters did you have, you said we?

N: I had only one sister.

I: You have one, one sister, and she still living?

N: She living. She at the Richmond Nursing Homes.

I: So you grew up on Church Hill. And you lived on Church Hill after you got married?

N: All of my life, I never lived anywhere else.

I: That's very interesting. Very interesting. I'm glad I could interview you Mrs. Allen. OK. What schools did you attend once you moved to Richmond?

N: I attended George Mason. It was East End School then, so I attended George Mason and then there was Armstrong. Which was at First and Leigh, and right across from Sharon Baptist Church then. I went to Vandiver's and took stenography, shorthand and typing in that class with Sister Pancrecia and I graduated in shorthand and typing.

I: You mentioned one of your teacher's name, Sister Pancrecia, do you remember any of your other teachers?

N: Well she taught that Branch I.

I: She taught stenography at, what about George Mason, do you remember any of those teachers?

N: Annie Augustus, Lucy Bolling, Wilmette Smith, Reverend J. Andrew Bowler.

I: Who was the principal, do you remember him?

N: Mr. Flournoy.

I: Mr. Flournoy.

N: Mr. Flournoy was the principal then.

I: And Mrs. Wilmette Smith taught at..?

N: She taught me the first grade.

I: At the first grade, OK, I'm gonna have to remember that. What about classmates?

N: Well my classmates are for the most part dead, but I had a few here and there around here now.

I: Do you remember any of their names? Anybody still living?

N: Mrs. Alma Jackson.

I: Alma Jackson.

N: Marie Clarke ________________________.

I: Marie Clarke or you all went to Armstrong?

N: Yes. A few more are living but I can't remember.

I: Do, is there anything you remember of your school days, or childhod that really stands out in your memory? Anything important that happened or affected you as a child?

N: Well, there wasn't anything over here that much where we lived except to go to church.

I: What church did you attend?

N: Fourth Baptist.

I: Oh, you did attend Fourth Baptist as a child?

N: Yes, as a child.

I: Did you all join right after moving to Richmond?

N: No, I was baptized ... because a Reverend T.F. Collins was the first one to take my sister and I to Sunday School. He was studying to become a minister at the time.

I: And where did he take you?

N: And he was driving a grocery truck for Ullman's & Co., a Main Street grocery store and he delivered groceries to the Moore's where my mother worked, and she told him she had two girls, and he asked to take us to Sunday School. And he use to come by and take us down to Sunday School.

I: So he took you to where--Fourth Baptist?

N: Fourth Baptist.

I: And his name was?

N: Reverend T. F. Collins.

I: T. F. Collins. I've heard his name.

N: And then Dr. Payne was the minister and when I was 9 years old I got baptized.

I: And you are still affiliated with Fourth?

N: I have been there all of my life.

I: How many years has that been?

N: 71.

I: 71 years. Beautiful, beautiful. What kind of activity did you participate in at church, as a child, and as an adult?

N: Well, almost everything. There was a, there was a white missionaries that use to come to our church, to teach us, how to make bed quilts. I don't remember their names, the children would all assemble and bring their little squares.

I: Do you know where they came from, the white missionaries?

N: ...sponsored by some church, Baptist group, but the children would bring their little squares, they...

I: Oh really?

N: They would teach how to put them together, to teach us how to sew because black folks won't doing much of that. They were all at work and they use to give us little cards with Bible verses on them ... and I remember my first one, "Every good and perfect thing cometh down from the Father above," and I never forgot it.

I: Amen.

N: And we had to come back and bring that and memorize it. The next time we come back to sew. Well, then we had that and afterwards the missionaries circle. The little missionary was formed by Effie Robinson, the mother of Rosa Wilkerson and she lived on 25th Street. And all the children use to go to her house for the missionary meeting. And she would fix lemonade, so forth and things like that. And that was where we started to learn missionary work for the church.

I: Beautiful, beautiful. And that was a Mrs. Effie Robinson, Rosa Wilkerson's mother. OK.

N: She kept that going until she got children interested in that and I always like to sing. That different program and Christmas plays, etc.

I: Well let me ask you about your missionary work. I understand you been in mission work for years and years. And you started as a child, and you are still active now. Tell me a little about your activities now as an adult, with the church.

N: As an adult I still work Lott Carey Foreign Mission, a number of home and hospital groups, sing with the volunteer choir and I taught Sunday School for 28 years. I'm a member of the Ladies Auxiliary and have kept pace with the missionary work through 4 pastors.

I: Have you noted any changes as far as, I know you've been very active in Sunday School and mission work. Were there many activities or changes, you know in your activities, I would say that affected your activities?

N: Well in a way, because age affect everything. I can't sing as well now because I did choir work, oh I guess all my life. Almost 30 years and after you get older your voice changes. I imagine you have heard that in the volunteer choir.

I: Well, let me ask you this, how did your work in the church, how was the Depression, how did the Depression affect your work in the church?

N: The Depression, well I don't know, I don't think it affected the work end, because see we use to raise money in different methods, you see we use to have plays and all those things, bringing in money, but of course now it is different. The money is raised through individual gifts. But the different is that then you gave plays to raise money. The missionary workers then were missionaries at heart.

I: So the commitment has changed?

N: Yeah, the commitment has changed and children don't come to Sunday School because their parents don't make them.

I: Now that is true, so you see a decrease in attendance?

N: Yeah...

I: Let me ask you about your neighborhood, you've grown up in Church Hill, and you said you married and lived in Church Hill, so when you got married where did you move to? You left.

N: Well I left then and went to live on 34th Street.

I: What hundred block?

N: In the 1200 block.

I: Who did you marry?

N: William Ball.

I: William Ball. OK.

N: Then I was divorced and I married Mr. Allen.

I: Then you married Mr. Allen. That was during the '40's?

N: Yes, the '40's.

I: And did you have any children?

N: I had two that I lost but I have stepchildren.

I: You have stepchildren now, how many stepchildren do you have?

N: I just have Tommy now.

I: Tell me a little about the neighborhood that you lived in, you lived in Church Hill.

N: The neighborhood I lived in on Q Street was the 3400 block, is a very friendly neighborhood because we knew everybody in Church Hill because Church Hill boundaries were so small then that you knew everybody.

I: What were the boundaries then?

N: Well see white people lived after you cross M Street you hardly found any blacks. From M to Broad was all white.

I: M to Broad was all white, now black, OK you said you lived on..?

N: Out to Perkin's Field as we called it, which meant 32nd, 33rd Streets.

I: 32nd, 33rd and T. That was called Perkin's Field?

N: ... we called that Perkin's Field and it went all the way out ...

I: And what year was that, about what was the time frame to that?

N: Well I don't know because that was before City lights, we didn't have street lights then. The City lights didn't come any further than P Street.

I: OK. City lights stopped at P.

N: Yeah. We didn't have no City lights.

I: How old were you when you were living over there?

N: Eleven or twelve.

I: And you stayed for, to... so you were about 11 or 12 when you moved over there.

N: No, I was about 9 when I moved there.

I: Nine when you moved there. OK. Was that area, well, you said the address was 3111 Q Street?

N: 3111 Q Street. Yes.

I: So you had a neighborhood of homes that people moved in and built their homes.

N: Yes. They had their homes.

I: They had to build them. Or they were already built? She bought a house there.

N: No,... My mother bought hers.

I: OK. And you didn't have street lights.

N: No, we didn't have no street lights and no sewage.

I: No sewage.

N: No, we had to go down to, to the backyard.

I: To the backyard, to the out house. You had a out house.

N: Yeah, way down in the yard. ..

I: And well water, I suspect.

N: Yeah, well water, we had to get water around the corner, end 32nd Street. Across 32nd and Q Streets, we had to walk about a half of block to get water.

I: About a half of block to get water?

N: Yes, well water.

I: And everybody probably use the same well.

N: No, just the people on this side use the well which is in the 1000 block North 32nd Street. And the people across on that side they had a well on that side the street.

I: So it was about two wells?

N: Yeah, two wells. And we use to draw water there.

I: So for the 1000 block of 32nd they had theirs.

N: So each section had a well.

N: ... and the street car use to come by our house. Came down Q Street, came down Q Street to Oakwood Avenue.

I: So it came down Q to Oakwood. The street cars.

N: Yes, the street cars.

I: What was that are called? Did it have any particular name? I know you mentioned Perkin's Field, was any other..? Give me some other names, I know you mentioned Perkin's Field.

N: Dog Bottom.

I: Where was Dog Bottom?

N: Out near Mount Olivet Church around in that section.

I: OK. Well Mount Olivet was located in ... Dog Bottom.

N: Yeah, Dog Bottom.

I: Anywhere else?

N: I can't think of any others.

I: All right. Well give me some names of the families that lived in your neighborhood during that time.

N: Well in that neighborhood, at that time, most of are now dead. I remember the Sales' who use to be in our church. ...

I: Clara Westry.

N: ...

I: Peachey Bailey.

N: The Barrs, Rachel Barr lived down the street and Gertie Brooks or Gertrude Brooks.

I: Gertie Brooks, Gertrude Brooks.

N: Lucy Cheotham. I guess they are all dead now.

I: How many families would you say was in that block? About.

N: All the houses were close I guess it was about 25.

I: About 25. Did you all get together for any type of social outings or picnics, or anything like that? Or was that done basically through the church?

N: Well all that was done through the church.

I: What about social organizations?

N: People didn't let children go too far in the usually, at home. They didn't have anything much. Didn't have much. Of course after they got to be teenagers there were social clubs.

I: OK. Give me some names of some social clubs. Were you involved in one?

N: Yeah, I was in one called the ..., I know they had a Belmont Social Club.

I: Belmont Social Club. These are for teenagers?

N: Yeah, they were, ... and we had a singing group.

I: What type of activities did they have?

N: Singing group.

I: Singing.

N: We'd have different programs at different churches.

I: What type of activities did they have in the social clubs?

N: Well they use to raise a little money and go to parties and things like that. Dances. I like dances.

I: So dances and parties, OK.

N: Yes.

I: You said that you got married to Mr. Allen in the '40's and you've lived at 3111.

N: No, I married and that was 1210 27th Street.

I: 1210 27th Street. OK. Tell us a little about that neighborhood. Who were the families there? What year, that was in the '40's, right? 1940. So you moved there in the early, 1940. Was that an all black neighborhood then?

N: Yes.

I: OK. What were some of the families that lived there?

N: Mrs. Martha Price.

I: Mrs. Price, Martha Price.

N: And Mrs. Robinson, Robinson, Ruth Wilson.

I: Ruth Wilson.

N: I remember the Allens. I just remember the father and there was a barber shop and the Mannings.

I: Were there any businesses near by?

N: What in the '40's?

I: Yes, in the 2700 block, in that neighborhood.

N: Yes, we had a barber shop in the block there.

I: Who owned the barber shop?

N: I'll think of it after awhile and the Rollinsons owned a restaurant.

I: What was the first name? Can you remember, or the names of the restaurant? Robbinsons? Rollinson.

N: They were two sister.

I: Oh, two sisters.

N: Yeah.

I: And they owned the restaurant.

N: Yes they owned the restaurant.

I: Oh good.

N: A little store and restaurant together. On the other corner, of course, there was a Jew store.

I: Do you remember his name? Or the name of the store?

N: I can't think of their name.

I: Well let me ask you this, what was some of the major holidays that were celebrated?

N: Well you mean when I was a child?

I: No as an adult.

N: As an adult?

I: Well as a child and an adult. I'm not gonna limit you.

N: Well as a child we looked forward to the third of April.

I: What was the third of April?

N: Emancipation. And that was the day when the parades would come, they all, the parades would come down P Street. And as children we would get out to watch the bands when they come down.

I: Oh, Emancipation Day, and what were some of the activities? Did you participate in any of the parades yourself?

N: No, we use to just watch.

I: Who sponsored the parades?

N: Well some black groups, I don't know of course that was the Emancipation Day and ...

I: OK.

N: ... of course they did away with that and then we use to have a tenth of May, which was Oakwood Memorial, that was another day we looked forward to. Because the bands and all would come to Oakwood Cemetery. They fire the shots and the marching bands on the 10th of May that was Oakwood Memorial. That was white mostly, but we use to enjoy it. We would stand along the way and watch.

I: So Emancipation Day was sponsored through the black organization and the Oakwood Memorial Day was sponsored through the white organizations. Yeah. What other holidays?

N: ... and we use to have, well there were others but as children I have named the one that we looked forward to.

I: What about as an adult?

N: Transportation was anything that over here for us.

I: Yeah, transportation wise, OK. What about some influential people that you remember from growing up and as an adult?

N: Over here. Well, Alpheus Scott. He had the shop in P Street.

I: Miss ... Scott.

N: He was the father of Mr. Robert C. Scott. He had the undertaker parlor on Q Street, 3000 block.

I: OK. Mr. OK. 3000 block of P. OK. Anybody else?

N: We had funeral homes and kept a little grocery store down in the 2900 block of P Street where the children would go to spend their money and I remember Mrs. Laura Burke, on 29th Street. She use to buy school lunches for the children. And we would cross there to her house. We didn't have cafeterias then in school, and we would go to her house and she would sell us codfish cakes for 3 cents and we would have that for lunch.

I: So you would buy your lunch from her. And then would you eat it there, or take it back to school?

N: You took it back to school. For about 5 cents you could get your lunch. You didn't have much more than that to spend. Mrs. Laura Burke use to do that.

I: Anybody from the community that...

N: Dr. Payne.

I: Dr. Payne, what type of doctor was he?

N: Well he was just, he got his degree for ministering a church.

I: OK. He was a minister. OK. Fourth Baptist. What type of work did he do in the community other than working in the church. Was he active in organizations?

N: Yeah. He would run revivals and he would represent you in court when children got into things because they didn't have lawyers then.

I: So he would represent them as a lawyer?

N: He would go to speak for you and they would think that Dr. Payne, his word went a long way.

I: Yes.

N: Everybody depended on him by being in the church for 46 years, naturally everybody grew up under him and looked to him for everything, especially at our church.

I: What about medical doctors, or politicians?

N: Dr. Tancil.

I: Dr. Tancil?

N: Tancil. He lived on the corner of 30th and Leigh Streets.

I: What kind of doctor was he?

N: Medical.

I: Medical. General practitioner.

N: Dr. Wilder.

I: Dr. Wilder?

N: Doug Wilder's uncle.

I: OK. Doug Wilder's uncle. And where did he live? Do you remember?

N: He lived in the same house that Doug lived in.

I: OK. He lived in the Wilder---

N: At the Wilder home. Dr. Charles Wilder. Then we had Dr.....

I: Any other unusual events that affected the neighborhood? Or your life? Any fires, or important people coming to the neighborhood?

N: Well no, but after, no, I don't know. No I don't remember any fires or anything like that.

I: You said that from M Street over to Broad Street you said was all white. Did you have any, how was the relationship between the blacks and whites in the neighborhood, living so close together?

N: Well, it was all right because that was most of the work we had then. Was to white people around there back here most all of the children were real busy, use to have little jobs and another, cleaning for the white people, we didn't have time, wash porches and do little things like that. Give us 25 cents or something like that to help. Money wasn't flourishing. They did laundry work. My grandmother did laundry work. We'd have to carry the clothes, children use to carry clothes---go and get them and bring them back home, lots of times we use to go with my grandmother to work. She didn't want us to stay home while she worked.

I: Whose homes did you go to, do you remember any names?

N: We use to go to Mrs. McDonnell who lived on 26th Street in the 500 block. We use to go with my grandmother there and stay while she worked. And Mrs. Statler and Mrs. Goode that lived across from George Mason School. We use to go there with my grandmother.

I: About what year would you say the whites started moving out of the community? Do you remember that?

N: Yeah I remember, but I can't say when year it was. I remember very well when they left. I think that Cumber left first.

I: Mrs. Cumber and she moved on 27th Street?

N: Yeah in the 700 block.

I: And that was an all white block?

N: I think that was a big thing. I mean it was a lot of stuff to that.

I: How was the reception to that?

N: Well it wasn't good I think they had to go to law court about it.

I: Oh really.

N: Yeah. Then others started moving slowly and gradually the neighborhood became black.

I: You said you went to the McDonnell homes with your grandmother. Were any other white homes visited? As children?

N: Well we use to go to J. S. Moore's. Well my mother cooked because they didn't have refrigeration in those days and my mother use to be the cook and my sister and I use to go there after school everyday to get food. That we'd have to bring home for our meals everyday.

I: OK. What about places to shop as a child? And as an adult? Where did you all go and shop?

N: Well we shopped mostly at the corner stores, food, because it wasn't so much money and there we use to have to it placed on the book, price and the article. And at the end of the week the store keeper would add it up and we would pay what we could on the bill and then keep getting food along the line.

I: What was the name of the store you basically went to?

N: I use to go to Mr. Phil Holmes.

I: Where was that?

N: He had groceries on P Street between 29th and 30th.

I: Any downtown stores?

N: Well we use to go down to the old market, 17th Street Market. My mother use to go down there every Saturday night because after a certain hour, after 8:00 I think all the meats were being reduced. And the poor people, or middle income people would go down to the old market because the butchers and things would give you a good price on the meat because they wouldn't have any way to keep it. So I use to go down there on Saturday nights.

I: What about the Saint Lukes Emporium? Did you shop there?

N: Well, no I didn't. My mother use to buy hats there but I never bought anything.

I: But you use to work with the Saint Lukes organization?

N: Organization.

I: And how many years did you work there?

N: I worked there three years.

I: And you, how old were you when you started working there?

N: Oh, I would say about in my 20's.

I: About 20. And you worked there for 3 years and what was your occupation while you worked there?

N: Stenographer, typist.

I: You were a stenographer, typist, and you did stenography, you took stenography from Mrs. ..., Mrs. Walker.

N: Yeah, and I also did the running copies.

I: The printing?

N: Not printing.

I: Dictating.

N: You know the machine, ...

I: Mimeograph.

N: Mimeograph. Yeah, that's right.

I: OK. So you did have a working relationship with Mrs. Maggie Lena Walker?

N: Yes.

I: What type of person was Mrs. Maggie L. Walker?

N: She was very stern, business like, a time for a smile, she was so business like she didn't have much time for anything else.

I: And what type of business was the Saint Lukes Organization doing at the particular time?

N: At that time they had you know Saint Lukes all over the country and the Saint Lukes Organization, they had lodges, the fraternal, yeah, men and women and children.

I: And by fraternal, they meant what? Was it insurance?

N: ... yeah, insurance, sick and death.

I: Ok. Sick and death. Now was the Penny Savings Bank there at the particular?

N: No, it was not. The Penny and Savings Bank use to be on the corner of 29th and Leigh Streets.

I: 29th and Leigh. At one time.

N: At one time Dr. Tancil was there.

I: Dr. Tancil was in charge of there.

N: Yeah.

I: OK. So and you left the Saint Lukes Building Organization when, do you remember the year?

N: You mean the building?

I: You stopped working there?

N: Yeah, I stopped working at the building in 1921.

I: 1921. And that's to have your first baby?

N: Yeah.

I: And you had two step sons now and their names are?

N: Herbert and Thomas.

I: Herbert and Thomas. And where did they go to school?

N: Herbert went to Armstrong, Virginia Union, NYU; Tommy went to Armstrong Virginia Union and Howard.

I: And where is Tommy working now?

N: Tommy is the pharmacist at Standard Drug Stores at 1st and Broad Streets.

I: And Herbert before he died, he was...?

N: He was principal of Albert Norrell School.

I: OK. So your children have done quite well, quite well, and you've been a resident of Church Hill since the age of 3 years old. Over 71 years. And you've been at this location, 608 1/2 North 26th Street for what, 30..?

N: 1951.

I: 1951. You were telling me about a helping Dr. Payne with his autobiography. You were the typist and you took shorthand from Dr. Payne. Was that ever published?

N: No, it was not because when it was brought to Fourth Baptist the deacons has to pass on it and it is not set up like it use to. The deacons had charge of most of the things then and after going through it, there was some things relating to the church splits and the Mount Olivet Church and Fountain Baptist Church that had come out of Fourth Baptist and that they didn't want it published unless some of that material was taken out, because it concerned some of the families that was in the church.

I: Oh, and so they refused to publish it.

N: And they wanted to take that out and because it wasn't taken out they refused to publish the book, I mean the paper.

I: OK. So the book was never published, the paper for to be published.

N: Yeah.

I: And you were saying or telling me a Reverend Fisher.

N: Miles Mark Fisher who was at Virginia Union and was assistant pastor with Dr. Payne. He took the material afterwards because Dr. Payne use to let him look at his affairs in his old age. And so he took the book to White Rock, N.C.

I: But as your own knowledge it was never published?

N: As far as I know, it's not published.

I: Do you have any closing remarks that you would like to make Mrs. Allen about your years of living and working in Church Hill?

N: Well, I would just like to say that I think that Church Hill is one of the finest places to live, I've never lived any other place, and I lived and grew up and worked, church life and marriage life, all have been right in Church Hill, East End, and I won't live anywhere else now because in my closing years I want to go from Church Hill to Heaven.

I: Amen, Amen, Thank you Mrs. Allen.

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