Church Hill - Courtney

Virginia Black History Archives

Church Hill Oral History Project

Transcript of Interview with Mrs. Rachel Courtney. Interview conducted September 27, 1982 by Linda McGowan.

I am doing an Oral History Tape with Mrs. Rachel Courtney at 2900 E. Leigh.

I = Interviewer
N = Narrator

I - Mrs. Courtney could you tell me where you were born?

N - Where I was born.

I - Where you were born?

N - I was born August the 17th 1905.

I - 1905

N - Wait a minute. What did I tell you the address was, we was on, yeah on P street next to where the Baileys live

I - What was the address. Was that the three 3100 block?

N - Yeah, no, 3000 what, That's right down there, Q street, because this is 2900 block, so Q street runs just like Leigh Street and M street, and all run the...

I - So it's the next block over. Leigh...

N - Well I know that, but I want to know what that number of that block there, it's, this is the 100 block, Q street, this would be the 2900 block of Q street right here where you're living. Right here. Where I use to live, the 30 hundred block would be right here,

I - So you were born in, next door to Mrs.Peachy Bailey and she lived 3025, Q Street. What were your parents name,

N - Henry and Rosa Barr.

I - Henry and Rosa Barr. Were they Richmond residents or did they come from some where else?

N - Yes. My, let's see, my father came from Hanover County.

I - And your mother?

N - Powhatan

I - Powhatan. Ok. How long did you live on Q street?

N - Oh, honey, so many years, I can't even count it.

I - What was your age when you moved off of Q street?

N - I was grown, and married, even had given birth to my son.

I - Oh, how many children have you had?

N - Just, just a boy.

I - Just one son. Tell me about your young years Mrs. Courtney.

N - Oh. What can I tell you about my young years was, I went to Fourth Baptist Church, and let me see now, what else.

I - OK. What school did you attend as a young lady.

N - George Mason.

I - George Mason, Who were your teachers in George Mason.

N - Mrs. Katie Gilpin, did you know her.

I - No, I am not familiar with her. But I've heard her name several times.

N - Her father was a doctor. James B. Gilpin, he taught us in the first grade.

I - She taught you in the first grade.

N - Yeah, going from there I even went to, do you remember they had the colored school down 29th street.

I - No. Was it an annex or something to George Mason.

N - Yeah,

I - I heard somebody else mention that, Mrs. Dandrige mentioned annex too.

N - It was right across from, they use to have a field there.

I - What, do you know where it was located.

N - What is that block there where fire engines house is.

I - Where the firemens are.

N - Yea, the next block which is on 20, oh poor me, I can't remember nothing.You know where the fire engine house use to be for years on 28th street. Since you've been a girl.

I - I can't remember. (laughter) OK. Wait a minute it's coming back to me, wait a minute, then they moved down 25th street. Right

N - No, they hadn't moved down there, when they went from 29th Reverend J. Andrew Bowler.

I - OK. alright. You talking about the fire station down here, that's 28th and S.

N - Well that was, the school was on 29th.

I - And S.

N - Yes.

I - Was it an annex to George Mason or what?

N - Yeah an annex. I graduated from there. That's where Rev. Bolder, use to teach, Mr. White, and who else, what's the woman name, she lives uptown.

I - Was that for older students?

N - Students, graduated from that school down there before you went to Armstrong.

I - OK. Alright. So it was apart of George Mason?

N - Yes.

I - OK. How old was you when you graduated from George Mason?

N - I don't know. (laughter) You have to find somebody that went to school with me.

I - Let me ask you this, when you was living on Q street did you all have indoor plumbing or was it, did you use wells?

N - We had, no we had outdoor plumbing laboratories and things was outside.

I - OK. Did you have an individual well for each family or did you use the community well.

N - No, we had, for each family.

I - OK. Tell me about some of the families that lived in your block.

N - Oh, Peachy Bailey, You know her?

I - If that's 3025 Q Street. Who else lived in your block?

N - Alma Gibbs, her mother, and Bernice lived in, well she lived on that side, the opposite side.

I - What was Bernice last name?

N - Bernice Woolridge

I - Bernice Wooldrige. Who else was in that block?

N - I'm trying to think now. I had thought about who I went to school with.

I - OK. Who were some of the people you went to school with?

N - Edna Clark, she lives in Fulton, Clara Robinson, he lived in Fulton they came up to the school, and graduated from, that little school there, 29th Street that was when we went to high school. Armstrong. Yeah. I went from there to Armstrong.

I - And when you went to Armstrong how old were you?

N - I don't know. (laughter) I gonna tell it like it is.

I - Were you sixteen or twelve, fourteen?

N - I was in my teens.

I - OK. Who was some of your teachers in Armstrong?

N - Mrs. Mines. You heard anybody

I - I've heard people mention Mrs. Mines.

N - She was a 7th grade teacher, on 29th Street and Mr. White, do you remember him Walt White, he was my teacher down there and Rev. Bowler. It was he was the teacher that graduated and went to Armstrong. Which was high school.

I - What type of man was Rev. Bolder? I've heard a lot about him.

N - Oh, he was a wonderful, fine man lovely disposition, quite.

I - Did he have a church. Or was he just a preacher?

N - Well he was, I think maybe he was a preacher of Mount Olivet, then yeah, he didn't just come there yesterday. He was fine looking man and they use to have a carnival that use to come here every summer and that was right across the street from these four primary grade classes and what the girl name Ethel Goode, she is dead now. I remember and she use to live right next door to these elementary grades.

I - OK. Did Mr. Rev, Bowler, live in this community?

N - No, he live in the West End.

I - Oh he lived in the West End.

N - Him and Mrs. What the woman name, Mines, and Mr. White. And Rev. Bowler, them four they were of the West end, when you graduated from them you went out to Armstrong.

I - OK. You don't remember anymore of your teachers at Armstrong, do you?

N - No, I tell you we didn't but anyhow the thing was so mean to us, he use to,every subject had a room. For each subject. Yeah. You went to each one.

I - So you changed classes?

N - Yeah. And of we thought that was fine, every subject had a different room.

I - OK. Let me ask you going back to your community, you are a young girl you are growing up in Church Hill, what was the thing that you remember most about growing up in Church Hill.

N - I remember that if you didn't go to Sunday school, you didn't go out the house on Sunday.

I - So it was a lot of social pressure?

N - Yeah. But we woke up in the morning getting ready for church.

I - To go to church.

N - Yeah. that's the way things was then. Now you can't find the.

I - Alright. So you joined Fourth Baptist as a young girl, do your remember what age you were. Ten, twelve, fourteen?

N - I don't remember. Bernice could tell you those things, because the reason I said that Bernice's mother, yeah, use to live in the same block where I use to live on. Q street.

I - What organizations did you belong to as a young girl?

N - None

I - What about at Church?

N - Yeah, we were entitled church groups but we didn't go places and run the street, this, that and the other. Momma didn't allow it

I - What church groups did you belong to?

N - Sunday School.

I - Sun day School. Did you belong to the BPU?

N - Yes. Went there every sunday.

I - What were some of your sunday school teachers and your BTU leaders?

N - What's that child's name? I just thinking about that child use to live next door to the Baileys. Those young girls, they were teaching of course down to the 29th Street school went from here to the 29th street school what did I tell you. To Armstrong And I didn't go through Armstrong.

I - You didn't finish. OK. Alright, now what happened when you finished did you go to work or did you get married?

N - I think I had some days work

I - Where did you work, do you remember which family?

N - The people were named Peerman

I - Were they on Church Hill?

N - Oh, lived on Marshall Street, do you know what block.

I - This block.

I - Oh they lived in this area. Oh, OK. So you lived, you were working right close to home.

N - Yes. and I remember. I don't guess you be able, I guess you heard your mother talk too, one year the snow was so high, I got to work I had to climb over the lady down on Marshall Street fence, and she said what you come down here, out here today for. Because you see we had, anything that we had to do we did it. Yeah.

I - And you had to work, so you worked?

N - Yeah,you know when I got up I knew I was suppose to go to work, and I got up and washed and dressed and went on over there, the lady asked me, I never forget it her name was Mrs. Peerman she said what did you come out here today for. I said well I had to come to work, that's right.

I - How long did you work for her?

N - Twenty two years.

I - You worked for her for 22 years, then what did you do?

N - Well I, what did I do.

I - Did you leave her and work some where else?

N - I worked in the family.

I - Oh in the Peerman family, you just worked for a different?

N - Yes. Like her sister, she was a Mrs. Cavedo her father use to carry mail, and truck, and her brother. One of her brothers was a plummer. I believe. I think that's all I can give you.

I - OK. While you were working for the Peermans were you getting married? Were you having children?

N - No.

I - Oh, when did you get married?

N - No I don't think I got married until after school. We couldn't have no boys friends (laughter). Get that lesson. Yeah child. Got things ready for the next day, what you had to do and so forth, line up for the next day, you don't...

I - Well the parents are not keeping up with them now.

N - Not really, that's true, well even in working that's where that big fault comes in, just the way we were raised.

I - And how did you raise yours?

N -

I - How did you raise yours?

N - I tried to raise mine like my mother raise me.

I - Did you raise him on Church Hill. So he was born on Church Hill?

N - Yeah he was born, right there, on Q Street next to the theatre.

I - This is a continuing interview with Mrs. Rachel Courtney, we'd like to talk a little bit about your years after you had graduated from high school. What were your activities in church as an adult, what are you active in now.

N - Play the piano

I - Oh you play the piano, for the Sunday school

N - Yeah, sing in the choir.

I - Sing in the choir. And what other activities?

N - Well I taught Sunday school for 20 years.

I - Could you give us some names of some of the pastors at Fourth Baptist Church

N - Reverend Evans Payne.

I - Rev. Evans Payne, now.

N - That was our first pastor, he was pastor for 40 years.

I - Really, and then who came after him?

N - In those days they didn't skip about, here and there.

I - They stayed awhile.

N - Yeah, he was pastor there for 40 years.

I - And who was next?

N - Well I don't know his name exactly, Bernice could tell you, because we went over it to Sunday school

I - Tell me a little about some influential people in the community, you mentioned J. Andrew Bolder that everybody knew, who else was well known in the community.

N - Oh, practically everybody, take part in the church affairs.

I - Was there anybody that just stood out, you know, amongst the people, very dynamic, well known leader in the community.

N - I don't know of anybody, he sang in the choir we did things to make the church

I - Was most of social and entertainment through the church or was there social organizations like Masons, and Elks.

N - Yeah. Because my father was a Mason for 27 years.

I - Did they have a Mason lodge on Church Hill, that he attended.

N - Yeah he used to go to Lilly Valley Hall.

I - To where

N - Lilly Valley Hall.

I - Lilly Valley Hall. on P.

N - On P Street?

I - On P Street, do you know what hundred block.

N - This block, no not this, the next block down.

I - Down?

N - Down where,you know where Wilson girl use to live, you know where Fountain Church.

I - Right.

N - Oh, that block?

I - OK. That's the 3100 block of P.

N - Well that's where it was, they had a large hall over there.

I - Oh, they had a large hall.

N - Yeah, And that where they use to meet.

I - Oh, OK. What about a black-white relationship, you had black and white living in the same community. You had blacks living in a particular area, and whites living in a particular area of Church Hill. How did they relate to each other.

N - Oh, we got along just fine. When saw them I said good morning and they said good morning.

I - So there wasn't any problems?

N - wasn't any mess like we have now honey.

I - Oh really.

N - No.

I - And you never experienced any problems going into

N - No, because ma always told us, we our pass them, say good morning, and they did us the same. Yeah, and a lady use to live down there 2800 block of Q Street, Mrs. Bullard spoke a lot about she was a elderly lady, she use to send my mother butter milk and butter yeah and all that,they were very close together.

N - Oh it wasn't like people do now. See we, so many of our young people pick disturbances well there were some fine families.We never had any disturbances.

I - What do you feel, probably the biggest change you've seen in Church Hill,since you been living here.

N - Oh, well the biggest change that I've seen, lots of our neighbors had moved and lots of them bought their own homes.

I - And do you feel like that was good?

N - Yes, indeed, as I said the white people treat him like just human beings, yeah, we always got along fine we didn't have no fusses or fights and all kinds like, you see that big field over there where they park cars?

I - Yes.

N - Well that's just like it was when I went to Sunday school, it was when I went.

I - Let me ask you this Mrs. Courtney what about some businesses in Church Hill, did you name some

N - Did you know Reverend Joe Crum.

I - No I did not.

N - He had a over there where they go those new houses, he had a shoe shop, yeah, he was a shoe repairman, and over on this side was that..

I - Was that on 28th Street

N - On over 28th and Q right across

I - OK. 28th and Q. Right.

N - Yeah, what's that place called places where they, hardware, hardware, I use to love to go to the hardware store that was on one corner, and a place that they have there right now still do in the same building.

I - Hardward store.

N - Was right there.

I - Oh, was it owned by black man or white man.

N - No. White. White through the years, we never have had no hardware there.

I - Oh really

N - Yeah. Yes indeed.

I - Do you remember any other businesses.

N - No, all the others were residents.

I - It was mostly residential.

N - Yeah, all We never did get along like these, people, do now.

I - Where did you do most of your shopping?

N - I didn't do it, my father always bought the groceries home.

I - Where did you go to buy clothes?

N - He was a butcher. He was a butcher.

I - Where was he a butcher?

N - Down at the market.

I - Downtown, down at 17th Street, so he would bring the groceries in. Where did you go to buy clothes.

N - They would buy and bring us what they know we needed.

I - Oh I see

N - They were so funny.

I - Well what about a an adult, you know, once you started to working And had your own money.

N - Well the same thing went on we use to always to Momma and Daddy one of them said so, one time, that if, long as you stay in here under my roof, you gonna do what I say do. And when you get your age, and can't do what I say, you can go. Yes, ma'am. That was' the way things was. Do you remember Lisa Logan.

I - No ma'am.

N - Yeah I know you don't, your mother remember, they use to live in our neighborhood, all of us lived in the same neighborhood, and we got along just fine, we never had no arguments, fights or nothing, we got along just fine.

I - We're there any whites living right next door to blacks in the neighborhood.

N - I tell you down in the block where the church is, on Q Street, this woman a was.

I - Oh, so she was in the same block, Oh, I see.

N - Yeah, they was right there, it didn't make any difference to them honey. No they lived just like white and colored live now. Living there or not she use to live in that block.

I - Well Mrs. Courtney I appreciated your time and if you think of anything that you think we can use please don't hesitate to call me.

N - Well I hope it's gone be alright, I tell you Bernice can give you some history.

I - Alright, I do plan to talk with Mrs.

N - Oh yeah she can give you some history.

I - OK. Thank you.

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