Church Hill - Dennis
Virginia Black History Archives
Church Hill Oral History Project
Transcript of Interview with Mrs. Kitty Dennis, August 25, 1982.
This is a tape interview with Mrs. Kitty Dennis in the historic Richmond office. Mrs. Dennis has agreed to share some of her remembrances of Church Hill and St. John's Church area dating back to the early 1900's. The interviewer is Akida T. Mensah and this interview is being conducted August 25, 1982.
I = Interviewer
N = Narrator
I - Mrs. Dennis, where were you born?
N - I was born in Zulu Land in South Africa at the area of the Dhlebe Mountains.
I - At the area of the Dhlebe Mountains, and how do you spell Dhlebe Mountains.
N - Ghlebe.
I - And when was this, when were you born?
N - I was born on May the 9th, 1896.
I - And how long were you in Zulu Land?
N - I think I was there 'bout [2] years, but the second Boar Wars coming, my family had been there, my brother was five years older than I am, and so they had been there about 8 years. But it was not safe for them to stay at that post at that time, so they left and went back to London. They were both Londoners.
I - You mentioned the second Boar War, would it have been the second or first Boar War?
N - It was the second war of the Zulus, see it was two wars and this was the second.
I - This would have been about when, do you have any idea that this war was beginning?
N - Yes, it began very soon after we left there and we left there in about between '97 and '98 because I was not quite 2 after I got there to England.
I - And you mentioned going back to England, so I take it that your parents were from England?
N - Both of them. Their name was Tyndall.
I - And your father's first name.
N - Francis Vaughn Tyndall.
I - And your mother's name.
N - Katherine Ennis Tyndall.
I - And they went back to London and then what?
N - Well, then they didn't like the, there was no work for anybody to do in England, unless you were a professional. You had to be a doctor or a lawyer, or something of that kind and my father's brother was a lawyer and they were so sticky - that when we went into the same little town which was near London, to live, that my Uncle Charles lived in, he told my father because he was not a professional, that he would have to go and buy his law practice somewhere else. He couldn't stay in a town with a non-professional brother. I only brought that up because I think we ought to realize that England was at time truly sticky and difficult for people to live in, and of course the capacity for population was small, but it also meant that many of the men went out as they used to speak of going to the corners. They went to Africa or to Australia and of course in that way the English people became as the ascendant people in both of those countries. And he spent a while and he left England and came where
I - ?
N - His older brother, Edward Tyndall, who was a newspaper man had left some years before and come to Florida, and he was a representative to the New York Times, and believe it or not in those days, it was for the whole state of Florida. And we went there but it was terribly hot and mosquitoes and the children had to be carried under nets. Nothing of the present Florida had been done. And many years later my mother we were going to Florida and she said why go to that awful place. And of course in her day there, when I was there, I'm talking about 1900 it was awful. When we came up here the nicest people, without a great deal of money landed on Church Hill, because it had been the best place that the people coming up, from Williamsburg had settled. And we lived in a house on 25th Street, between Grace and Broad, it looks over the side of St. John's Church. But my mother wouldn't go to St. John's Church because they didn't have a vested choir.
I - And by vested choir...
N - And I belonged to the children's group over there, but the nearest vested choir was Monumental-Church.
I - By vested what do you mean?
N - They were vestments. They wore a cassic and a white robe.
I - And you are saying at St. John's they just sort of...
N - St. John's didn't have it then. People just went into the pews, mean into the choir stalls in their ordinary street clothes. And my mother thought that was terrible. Because she had come from a fairly high church in England where everything was much more formal and course then Bishop was vested here. But the rest of the choir and a good many of the clergy were not. It was still in pretty low status far as the Episcopal Church was concerned.
I - So you were about four years old when you came?
N - I was 4.
I - And you say you did attend some functions at St. John's Church.
N - I went to the children's group at St. John's Church. There was a little group for children from four to eight, and it was called the baby auxiliary.
I - What was that like? Did you enjoy it?
N - Well, all of those auxiliaries were for missions. You learned about the mission stations, and it's very difficult for people today, they think they find an Episcopal mission station in China. But they don't anymore because China is now Christianized for itself, so they don't have to have a mission sent to it and they used to have to have. Because China and Japan, particularly were the things the Episcopal Church sent missions to.
I - What was school days like, did you go to school in Church Hill?
N - I went to Bellevue School, which is now Bellevue Apartments. I went there to school from the 5th grade until, no that isn't right. I went to a Ms. Fanny Andrews for the lst and 2nd grade and then I went to Bellevue School from then on, so I must have been about 8 when I must have been about eight when I got to Bellevue.
I - Ms. Fanny Andrews was a private tutor?
N - Ms. Fanny Andrews lived on the between 24th and 23rd in one of those small houses. She was next door to the Pollard house. The Pollard house is on the corner of 24th and Grace. And Ms. Fanny had a school in the next house.
I - And after this private tutoring, you went to Bellevue?
N -Well, it was only school here for little children. I guess maybe that Bellevue didn't take us quite that young in those days. I guess you had to be about 3rd primer before they let you come into the public schools. Be- cause I know everybody went there.
I - And Bellevue, around that time, was one of the few schools...
N - It was the only school in this area. Leigh Street was .... there was a Leigh Street School and a Bellevue school. You know where the big Baptist Church is with the steps up to it, well Leigh Street School was right close to that.
I - So there was a Leigh Street School near Leigh Street Baptist Church?
N - That's right. And then there was the Bellevue School.
I - So we are talking about the old Bellevue School again. And how long were you there at Bellevue?
N - Until I finished and went to high school.
I - And what high school did you attend?
N - John Marshall, there wasn't any other.
I - What was the neighborhood like when you grew up here?
N - The people who lived next door to our historic Richmond office in the companion house were quite wealthy people. They were the people who started the first Farm Journal here in Richmond and practically for the whole of Virginia. Old Mr. Jackson who was also an Englishman who had come out and settled here. Except for that one house, most of people were about like ourselves, striking along. My father went to work for the implement company because he know all about farm implements and farming. And that was on the corner of 18th and Main. And people just got jobs where they could. The South had not developed at that time any amount of industry of any kind not even in Williamsburg. There were a great many English people and some Germans.
I - Did you know the Van Lew Family?
N - Ms. Van Lew was very fond of my mother. Ms. Van Lew was a sympathizer of the North. And she was made the post mistress by the North. And people would not speak to her. They wouldn't have anything to do with her. And she had a very nice maid named Daisy. And the other children called her Crazy Daisy. And my mother said if she ever caught me doing that it would be just too bad. And so Ms. Van Lew and Daisy were very fond of my mother and I was allowed to go into Ms. Van Lew's house which was where the school is now. And Ms. Van Lew had what a lot of people don't believe, but I've been in it, and I know it's true. She had a door to a set of steps on her first floor and when you went down those steps, you got to a passage way which took you down to the Union Prison.
I - What other families do you remember?
N - Well the Jackson family lived in the house next door to here.
I - That would be 2405.
N - Yea, well this Mr. Jackson was the father of a young woman who married a Mr. Hardwicke. That Mr. Hardwicke was the man who started, well really Mr. Jackson was the one who started the Southern Proper, which was a magazine here that was descriptive of all of this part of the country. But it was really a farm magazine. And then Mr. Hardwicke went into Etna Insurance Co. and was the head of it here in Richmond for many years. And they later moved away from the father and mother's house; also went over on 27th Street. They were on the southside of Broad Street and we were on the northside of Broad Street. And old Dr. Garcine deserves to get into that picture. He lived in the big house on the corner of 25th and Broad. And he was the doctor for all of the people in this neighborhood.
I - And his name was Dr ..... N Garcine. And his son, now dead, was my age and we used to have the Church Hill players because the Garcine's had a big back yard and old Dr. Garcine built us a big platform in the back and that was our stage.
I - As you were saying that you were...
N - They had plays in the Garcine's backyard. Well, Katherine Hardwicke the one who had lived next door at this house, 2405, and when Lou moved over to 27th Street, would never play anything but the lead parts we always teased her, she had to be the leader, and she became the sleeping beauty. And then I remember one of the experiences I had that was quite an experience for me. As I came' down, Dr. Garcine's steps he had steps down into his office, I found 75?. You know, back 80 years ago, 75? was a lot of money. I took it into Dr. Garcine my mother would not have let me touch it, it wasn't my money. So I took it into him and pulled his top drawer out and put it in there and he said, now Kitty I will keep this for you for about 6 months and if nobody claims it, you can have it. So at the end of 6 months then it was getting to be real summer time, and I wanted to go up to Caroline County and I didn't have the money to go. So he gave me back the 75@, nobody had ever claimed it. And it or not, that took me up to Caroline County in those days.
I - How did you travel?
N - We had little trains. There wasn't any other way to travel except on a train in those days.
I - Do you remember the railroad, the name of the railroad, was it C&O?
N - I think it was RF&P. 'Cause there was no such thing as a bus and there were no private automobiles. The first private automobile on Church Hill was owned by a doctor and it was really, when you think of it today, quite interesting. As he came, he lived down about 32nd and Broad Street, and as he would go west on Broad Street it would gradually be lined at every corner by the children seeing an automobile go by. And on the corner of 27th and Broad every night we used to have somebody would play statues. I don't know whether you know about playing statues or not, you're probably too young. Well, someone takes your hand and flings you and where ever you land and your arms up or down, that is a statue. And you have to remain in that position, until the next game comes along. Well, that's a girl named Ruby Parsley who is now one of the people out at the Episcopal home, and she is about 2 years older than I am. And she and I were talking about the big flung for statues the other day.
I - You mentioned the Van Lews and the maid by the name of Daisy and that the Van Lews were Northern sympathizers.
N - Well, Ms. Van Lew was in disgrace as far as Church Hill was concerned because when the North came in and they took Church Hill, well they took all of Richmond, Ms. Van Lew was made the northern post mistress for here in this area, so Virginians would not speak to her.
I - I raised that question because in some of the readings she also was anti-slavery, and do you supposedly somewhat friends to the blacks around. Were there black families in this area, at all, that you recall.
N - I don't think so. We had a very wonderful Mary Lawrence and she lived down on 32nd Street. And the Hardwicke's maid lived out there too because one very cold Christmas morning, my friend Kathleen's mother was taken very ill and of course normally the raid would not have come in for Christmas Day. So they asked me to ride out to 32nd Street on my bike and see if I couldn't find Nanny and bring her in. Ask her to come in to Mrs. Hardwicke because she was quite ill. Well it was just too cold for anybody to ride a bike so I fell off the bike half frozen and somebody in the neighborhood picked me up and took me into their house and one of the Negro families and chaffed my hands trying to get feeling back into them again, but it was bitterly cold. And there was no heat in any house, anything of that kind.
I - So during that time, blacks lived back on....
N - They lived mostly around 31st, 32nd Street. And you went straight out well I went straight out 25th Street to get to them.
I - The 2100 block of Marshall Street in a survey done, several years ago, on Church Hill, there was supposedly a black development there do you recall ...
N - But isn't that where the street becomes diagonal below Jefferson Park?
I - No, that's where Wiseman's Cleaners used to be on Marshall. Do you recall an thing about that area during.
N - No, I'm sorry I don't., It may be then we had gone Forest Hill or Woodland Heights rather.
I - Well actually did the notation was that this was prior to the Civil War that, I was just wondering was there any of those families still in the area when you were there.
N - I don't remember anybody being killed. There was a great deal of animosity against the North. But I was too late of any killing of any kind.
I - I was referring to whether there might have been families still living in that area.
N - I don't think there is any doubt there were still families, there probably were, at the moment I don't have any clear recollection as to where.
I - What kinds of businesses were on Broad Street around St. John's Church?
N - There was Pardon's Drug Store, which is on the south side of Broad Street, almost now across from the bank. Where the bank is, the next one was Nolde's Bakery and Nolde had a little retail business that you went in, and I think the one thing you might be interested in that Nolde had a way of making what they called a sponge cake, which wasn't what we really call sponge cake today at all. And they put it out into a very very flat pan so that the cake was maybe an inch and 1-2 high. And then they iced it. Well people used to stand in line on Saturday mornings to get the edges which didn't have all the icing on the, so you got that for half price. The ones that were really iced were, for those days, quite expensive, but if you mind taking an edge then you got it for half price, and we being very poor bought as many as we could get and then next to that, no across the street there was a Chinese laundry man who we were all perfectly devoted to. He used to give all the children in the neighborhood the bracelets, the kind of bracelets that Chinese people use all the time Jade, is the Color, it was like a chain you could break it by just snapping it on the table. And we all loved old Mr. Lee and he didn't.want to be called Mr. 'cause all our parents made us call him Mr. Lee.
I - There is a laundry now between Marshall and Broad. And I believe that is Mr. Lee's laundry. Is that the same location.
N - I have no idea. Could be, might. Between Marshall and Broad on 27th Street were some of the very nicest houses. There was old Mrs., I think the house is still there. There was 312 and 314 and then there was a big house in which an old lady named Crump lived and she had a single daughter who was quite an old maid and our fence boards joined together had a little split place, like a "v" that had been taken out of it and Ms. Sally Betty Crump would come out and put her nose in that little space and say to my mother, "Mrs. Tyndall, is it going to rain today?" And mother's reply was "I don't know Ms. Sally, I haven't been up yet." Ha Ha Ha. We all giggled over that. We had a very long brick park, cause we had a very long back yard on that house on 27th Street. And when it would ice over that was the skating for the children in the neighborhood. Everybody came to skate in that lot. It was real narrow, could not have been more than 3 feet wide, but it was the full length of the yard and it went out to a big stable which was owned and operated by Mr. Westwood, who also had a house there. Then there was a young man who used to get Mr. Westwood's milk for him. And the milk was in a can and he learned to be able to put his hand on the handle and swing that thing around without spilling the milk out.of it. He went so fast. Until I was almost eighteen.
I -You lived in Church Hill until you were almost 18?
N -We moved about March and I would have been 18 in May.
I -And this would have been around what?
N -Well, I was born in '96, so it would have been 1914.
I -Well this was during the 1st World War, beginning of the WWI. What was Church Hill like during that period?
N - It was still a very nice neighborhood of residences, but the people could not get the same heat over here because it was no heat in the houses. It was still a question of toting your own coal bucket and bring in your own wood. And so a number of people one of them being my friend the Hardwickes, a lot of them went up to the 1900 block of Hanover Avenue, where I suppose 12 or 15 Church Hill families went up to there. And this was again Mr. Hardwicke who was head of that.
I - So you moved up on Hanover, your family moved up on Hanover?
N - No, families over here did and the more well to do ones. But we moved to Woodland Heights, which was in the town of South Richmond. See South Richmond and, it was Manchester. Manchester and Richmond were not one town, they were two towns. And Mr. Jonathan Brown owned that section of Manchester and thought he was going to make another Ginter Park out of it. And people don't realize it but in those days Ginter Park was the cat's whiskers to live in. It was "the" spot to live in those days. I guess Church Hill came around about next but so many of the good people from Church Hill had gone to Ginter Park that Church Hill was beginning to be second class by comparison.
I - Well I certainly appreciate your taking this time to talk and we probably have other questions of you to clarify some things and we will be in contact with you.
Questionsor Comments
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