Transcript of Interview with Mrs. Helen Williams Fitzpatrick, August 17, 1982.
This is a tape interview with Mrs. Helen Williams Fitzpatrick, of 4321 Faquier Avenue, Richmond, VA. Mrs. Fitzpatrick has agreed to share some of her remembrances of living in the Jefferson Park area of Church Hill during the early 1900's. She claims to have witnessed the cave in of the train tunnel that went under the Jefferson Park in 1925. This interview was conducted August 17, 1982 in the home of Mrs. Fitzpatrick at 2:00 p.m. . Mrs. Fitzpatrick was interviewed by Akida T. Mensah.
I - Do you remember the address of the house that you first moved to?
N - No.
I - You do not. In growing up in the Jefferson Park area, who were some of your neighbors?
N - Well ,on the end of the block was the Dickeys, he was in insurance. They lived there, they built their house before we moved there. Next door was the Cottrells, then the Noldes, the Noldes Bakery. Next to that was the McEwens, he owned a candy factory. Then next door was a big house with a large yard, the Watkins lived there. He was president of the Etna Insurance Co.
I - Edmond?
N - Etna, it was Etna then. I think it was Etna. And then the next house was.
I - And you lived in that block for about how long?
N - I lived in that block about from 1911 till about 1926.
I - So you probably went to elementary school in the area as well.
N - Yes.
I - What elementary school did you go to?
N - Springfield.
I - You went to Springfield. Ah, Springfield Elementary then would have been located on 26th Street between "M" and Leigh. What was it like going to Springfield?
N - Well everyone walked to school then and you picked up your friends on the way. So you started out with maybe one, two by the time you got to school it was three, four of you. And everyone knew everyone in the neighborhood. Across the street was the Leigh Street Baptist Church. Most everyone you knew went to Leigh Street Baptist Church. It was just a hometown community, really.
I - Did you attend Leigh Street?
N - No, I went to First Baptist which is up on Broad Street, but I went to Leigh Street until the B.Y.P.U. things with my friends.
I - And BYPU, is that Baptist Young Peoples Union?
N - Yea.
I - And did you finish Springfield?
N - Yes. I finished Springfield and then I went to Bellevue.
I - Went to Bellevue. And Bellevue was located where?
N - Over on Franklin. Is it Franklin or Grace?
I - Grace I believe.
N - Grace. Right next to the nursery. Monta Maria.
I - Monta Maria Nunnery. And was that like going, was Bellevue then serving as a junior high?
N - Yes.
I - Okay. What was Bellevue like?
N - Bellevue was like Springfield, just a continuation because you knew everyone there, and you were still with your own crowd. So it was everyone left together, everyone went on to the next school together, and when you left Bellevue, everyone went to John Marshall together.
I - So it was a time ... which seem like you are saying that the neighborhood was a very closely knitted neighborhood and you could expect to grow up with your friends basically.
N - That's right.
I - You stayed at Bellevue until graduation and then you went on to John Marshall?
N - That's right.
I - And what was that like? Can you describe.
N - Bellevue. Well they were all as I said most everyone walked together. We had a tennis court on Jefferson Park. You were at the school you came home, your friends were all with you. You had a nice tennis court. Everything that was done in those days was done in the groups that you went around with. And everybody seemed to, I mean no one had caused, of course you were lucky if you had a bicycle. But no I don't remember any bicycles being ridden to school in those days, there might have been, but I don't remember. And the friends that you had there you could kept all through the years.
I - Mrs. Fitzpatrick, you have described generally what it was like going to Bellevue and the closeness of the group of peers you grew up with, upon graduating from Bellevue and going on to high school what was that like, what mode of transportation, for example, did you use to get from your house.to high school?
N - There was a street car, several street cars that went across the via duct. There was a via duct, and my father's drugstore was at the end of the via duct, just as you started over. So if it was a rainy day you rode the street car, which was a nickel. And if it was pretty you walked, and there'd be quite a number of children walking. But as I said in bad weather, everybody rode. And when I would come home from school, I would have to stop and go in the drug store and if I would have to stop and go in the drug store and if I had a friend with me, we would go in and get some ice cream and see my father.
I - And, well let me first ask, what street car would you catch to go to John Marshall, do you remember?
N - One came down Jefferson Avenue and that turned right, but went over the via duct. Another came down Marshall Street, I think that was named Fulton and the one Jefferson Street was named Broad, but you could catch either one to go over the via duct, 'cause they both went up the hill to Broad Street.
I - And John Marshall, of course, then was on Marshall Street between 8th and [9th].
N - Yes.
I - So it was 6 considerably good distance from Jefferson Park to where you had to go to school.
N - Yes.
I - But it seems from what you are saying that it was general rule that the younger people enjoyed the walk on clear days.
N - Yes, now a lot of them lived further over on Church Hill Would have to ride the street cars all the time. But a lot of them do seem to like to walk.
I - Now you mentioned the drug store, and who owned this drugstore?
N - My grandfather, Thomas Williams owned the drug store originally. And when he had it a street car came down around Jefferson Avenue and ran into the drug store and pinned my grandfather behind the soda fountain, but my father was going to medical school and when this happened, he switched to pharmacy. So when he graduated he took,,over the drug store because my grandfather was never able to work again. So they rebuilt the drug store and my father kept it then.
I - So your-grandfather, Thomas Williams.
N - Thomas Basil Williams.
I - Basil Williams owned the drug store originally and after his injury and your father sort of stepped in and your father name was?
N - Robert Johnson Williams.
I - So this was the Williams Pharmacy at 21st....
N - 21st and .....
I - Marshall. And what was that like? Did, you know, in my mind when you speak pharmacy, I think of kids coming in and getting sundaes and soda pops and so on, and sort of congregating. Was that ...
N - It was that way and then I remember in the back there was a yard and my father had two hunting dogs out there in the back yard, which didn't go along with the store but they were never allowed in the store. But I always like to ... I never cared too much for ice cream because I got too much of it, but my friends always liked it. So when we come home from school we would go in and have an ice cream. So it was, that was you sort knew everyone.
I - So you, in addition to going to school with a set group, and growing up with this group, a lot of your entertainment or out of school fun was also enjoyed with this group at the pharmacy. And you also mentioned earlier playing tennis in Jefferson Park.
N - Yes.
I - Has the park changed or have you had an opportunity to see the park recently. And in your mind had that area changed a great deal?
N - Well it looked, I was over there a couple of years ago and it looked to me like it had changed. It looked small, but that's because I was small I was smaller when I was, living there. But then I think they have made quite a few changes, but on the top part there was a grass tennis court. And the park keeper, when they would cut the grass, they always cut it nice for the tennis courts. And I think the tennis net and all were kept in the little park house for who ever wanted could always use it. But they had, it was very nice, anyone could play there that wanted to.
I - You mentioned living in that area for a while and there was a cave in, I believe of the tunnel that went under or at least near the park. Do you remember that?
N - Yes I remember that, I was about 16 at the time and it was horrible. The people who were trapped... some of the people they got out but the engineer and I think a couple of others they couldn't get out and they dug, drilled all night for two nights and everyone in the city seemed to come over to see it, it was a tragedy. And then after they had done all they could and, couldn't get any more out, then that Sunday everyone came over to see the big cracks and the damage that had been done. And I think they started over at Liberty Hill park where the engine went through and then when the cave in came it was under Jefferson Park.
I - And this would have been generally around 1925 or there abouts.
N - Yes, uh ha.
I - How did that effect you. You, sixteen and right at your door just about, is a tragedy. A tragedy that it is probably didn't seem so then, has taken on a real historical significance.
I - I have heard it when I was growing up about the cave in and countless generations probably have been told that story.
N - Well everyone came out of their homes, everyone just stayed there and prayed that they would get the people out. Some of the people along the park brought out food and drinks for the people that were working and everyone was together and trying to help, of course they wouldn't let you down to where he things took cable, we were up on the park, could see it and could hear it and we could hear the drilling all night and it was a very big tragedy for everyone in Richmond and for 'specially the one that were there and that knew, and of course for the one left there in the tunnel.
I - Did you ever have the occasion to ride the train that went through the tunnel?
N - No that...they were experimenting. I am not sure, it was just a little engine that they were trying to dig through when the thing caved through. It was a tunnel there. I don't remember anybody ever riding through it.
I - It seems and we talked about this earlier that it wasn't long before you were born that the Jefferson Avenue had been renamed from Church Hill Avenue and you mentioned that you hadn't heard that before.
I - I was just wondering if, you know, If there were anything in your recollection that would signal what people thought about that. Was there a certain amount of pride to that Jefferson Avenue or what?
N - I don't remember that, but I do know that when they changed the street that he lived on from, it used to all be Jefferson Park, they changed the street we lived on to Princess Anne Avenue. And that is what it is now.
I - Mrs. Fitzpatrick were any of your neighbors or involved in public eye in any way. Say in politics or entertainment or any way before the public.
N - Yes. Mr. Dickey. He lived, built his home on Jefferson Park and lived there as long as I can remember. He was on the City Council.
I - And you say his name was Worthly Dickey. Could you spell his first name Wert.
N - Worthly Dickey. And then John L. Satterfield was on the City Council, and he lived there. And then on Jefferson Park too was Dr. John L. Slaughter, he was the minister at Leigh Street Baptist Church for years and he only passed away I think in the last couple of years. He went to South Carolina. But Mr. Dickey was a deacon in Leigh Street Baptist Church and he was the oldest living deacon and they had quite a reward for him before he passed away.
I - It seems that this was basically the 1900 block or just the Jefferson Park area.
N - All those blocks in there that were ... it was several triangles there and some, Mr. Dickey lived on the block with us, Mr. Satterfield lived down lower, but there were three blocks within that area that was sort of all together.
I - So the Jefferson Park area was seemly quite an interesting neighborhood.
N - It was. There were a lot of nice people there.
I - Would you say that generally speaking, the Jefferson Park area sort of formed a neighborhood of its own or were you all friendly with people outside of that...
N - Oh yes. We were friendly with everybody around, but it just happened that, in those days when you lived on a block with everybody on that block you didn't have the means of going further away. You went to school with everybody and you sort of played with the children which were closest to you. Which is natural. And
I - I was asking that not meaning anything negative about it but he fact that Jefferson Park is sort of a compiled group of houses, it sort of lends itself to people being away from the other neighbors, probably. And I am looking at, from the backside of Jefferson Park you have Mosby Street, but, I don't know about then, but now there aren't a great deal of houses between say Jefferson Avenue and Mosby. And the park sort of sits up and away from what we know as historic Church Hill area. And I just wondered whether...
N - Well we formed Ups Hill Club when we were young and we had girls from each part of the neighborhood. One girl lived on what's the street below Mosby, the next street over... that's 21st Street then. She lived there the ones that were in our club were the ones that were the nearest that we could get to come to the meetings. The ones that we could walk to is what I am trying to say.
I - So that in answer to my question, it wasn't quite as an exclusive neighborhood as I would think. I was thinking because it was the park and it sort of set up in away from Marshall Street the houses at least, the park separated the houses that are on what is now Princess Anne from houses on Marshall and even houses that are on Marshall and even across Jefferson Avenue. What, as you say, if you could walk to them then they ...
N - Any place we could walk whether they were all together, no there wasn't anything .... as I said there were no cars and so when you had clubs you had to carry people to get back and forth easy.
I - The ones closest to you. And some of them came on the street car. And did this club have a name and I'm leading to is the club still in existence?
N - Yes it still exist. Most of the members have moved away. The name of the club was the Pipins.
I - The Pipins?
N - It was from an Albermarle Pipin (an apple), when we decided to have the club there was an apple on the table when we got the club up we said what are we going to name it. One looked at this apple said we will name it the Pipins and we still have the Pipins. When any of the members come from out of town we meet and go to the museum for lunch, the ones that are after all these years.
I - So when do you know when this club was started, the year?
N - It was started, it was about 50 years or more now so it must have started back in 50 years ago.
I - And do you all meet regularly, say annually or?
N - Well we used to meet every other week and since some of them are so far away and some of them have passed away, it takes for one of the girls to come to town now that we will get together and go to lunch. On occasion the ones that live here will get together and go to lunch. It was a bridge club, we don't do that play bridge anymore.
I - That's interesting. You like that name?
N Yes, yes. The Pipins. Everyone would ask where did you get that name. That kept us close too. Every, once a month we'd have a get together and everybody would-spend the night at one person's house, and have sort of a weekend party. The first year some of the girls even lived over in Barton Heights and come over on the street car.
I - And living in the Jefferson Park area and going to school at Bellevue and Springfield, these kinds of things, we have not talked at all about the kinds of things, we have not talked at all about the kinds things you did for recreation. And I know you have mentioned that you didn't have transportation to go long distances and so on. What kinds of things did you do for recreation?
N - Well I guess we skated, we played tennis, and we had a vacant field down at the end of the block and we played baseball and kind of game that we could play we played on that field and anybody that wanted to play with us played. Everybody there. We just did the average things for children did. And then when we got older, of course we played bridge and did most things of that sort. There didn't seem to me to be as many activities at school then as there are now for the children.
I - The things that you mentioned, playing baseball, tennis and skating seem inexpensive kinds of recreation. Were they?
N - Oh yes.
I - And skating did you skate on the streets, on the sidewalks?
N - You would have to skate on sidewalks? Everyone had roller skates and I think only one or two had the bicycles, but, they were both on the block. And I will never forget, Helen Dickey the daughter of Worthly Dickey they used to be a, they delivered the milk and the eggs, this man would come every Saturday with a horse and he had a wagon, and he would come and go along the street and deliver his milk and eggs to everyone. Well one day we use to hang on the back of the buggy and when the horse stopped going we- would jump off, and Helen's skirt hung in the wheel of the thing, so they pulled her and we screamed and the man stopped. Well we looked at Helen and her eyes had rolled back so we thought she was dead. So we stepped over her and ran home and hid under the bed the rest of the day. But she didn't die, she was all right but in those days, your milk and eggs would come every week eggs and fresh vegetables, but had a horse drawn buggy.
I - Well it has certainly been a delightful evening talking and reminiscing about life in Church Hill and Jefferson Park area and I appreciate your allowing me this time to come into your home.
N - We've enjoyed it. I just wish I knew more about the whole area like I'm sure some people do, be able to help you more.
I - Thank you.
Questions
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