Church Hill - Christian
Virginia Black History Archives
Church Hill Oral History Project
Transcript of Interview with Mrs. Katie Flannagan, September 7, 1982.
This is a taped interview with Mrs. Katie Flannagan of 305 South Laburnum Avenue. Mrs. Flannagan lived for years in the 29th and Q Streets area of Church Hill. This area has for a long time been the of social activity in the black community. Mrs. Flannagan lived in the 1100 Block of 29th Street and attended the historic Fourth Baptist Church. This interview is being conducted by Akida T. Mensah on September 7, 1982.
I = Interviewer
N = Narrator
I - Mrs. Flannagan when were you born?
N - April 18, 1902.
I - April 18, 1902. And where were you born?
N - 1109 North 29th Street.
I - So you were born in Richmond, Virginia?
N - Yes.
I - And you lived at 1109 North 29th? Who were your parents?
N - Mr. and Mrs. James R. Toast.
I - James R. Toast, Mr. and Mrs. And your mother's name, first name?
N - Rosa Jarrod.
I - She was Rosa Jarrod, her maiden name was Jarrod? OK. Do you remember anything about your grandparents, their names and where they were from?
N - I don't remember anything about them. Because I don't.
I - OK.
N - I remember my grandmother. But I, you know, she use to come visit us, she lived with her son in New York. And she use to come to visit us, I knew her. But I wouldn't know anything concerning her other than that.
I - And her name was?
N - Ellen Jarrod.
I - Ellen Jarrod. And as far as you, you, you said you don't know whether she was born here in Virginia or not, or in Richmond.
N - I am almost positive she was.
I - I ask that question because some of the old City directories sometime in looking through them, you can find the names of people who, for example, there is a 1871 City Directory that I found the name of Benjamin Banks in and I'm thinking that they related to the Benjamin Banks that I know. And I also found the Mr.Willis' grandfather's name in that City Directory of 1871. So sometimes you can come across these names. What school did you attend? Elementary school.
N - I was looking at this because this says East End, but, yeah, entered East End School, but it was later changed to George Mason.
I - So you, you went to East End and it was located at 29th and 0.
N - Yes.
I - And did you complete schooling at East End?
N - East End.
I - And did you go further to school?
N - Went to Armstrong, two years.
I - And then what did you do?
N - Well, my father passed and my sister passed. My mother's health wasn't too good. And my sister left two babies, two small babies and I just stayed home and helped her.
I - So after two years of high school you stopped school to help the family?
N - Yes.
I - With the smaller children and your ill mother. You said your father passed and a sister also passed. What, what can you describe the neighborhood at that time when you had to come out of school? What was the neighborhood like? What was life like around 29th Street?
N - That was a beautiful life, I tell you that. The people who lived there, anybody owned their homes, and...
I - And this was the 1100 block?
N - North 29th. And there was one block from where I told you that Seven Pines car shed, we use to call it.
I - And the car shed was located at 29th and P?
N - Yes. And it took in that block because use to go up there and park. Now I am wondering if on Q Street, no that is not boarded up now, for years it stayed boarded up, you know, the cars use to come around in there and circle and come on out, come out to Q.
I - Can you name some of the people who lived in that block, you said most of them owned their homes? Can you remember the names of the families?
N - All of them did, from 29th and R, was a family by the name of Lewis.
I - Can you remember their first names?
N - John.
I - John Lewis.
N - And he, he sold fish and stuff like that. He had a wagon one time on the street. And the next house was a vacant field. The next house was a Mrs., Mr. and Mrs. Lincoln White. You know who was their children and grandchildren are, you know the Mitchells that run that flower shop.
I - Yes.
N - That's their children and grandchildren. They had a daughter named Ruth. And Ruth was Ruth Pitchford and Ruth Pitchford, after she married the Pitchford, she lived two doors from 29th and 0. The houses are pulled down, of course, now. But anyway coming back to 29th Street where we lived at, that block between Q and R, this Mr. and Mrs. Lincoln White lived there. Everybody seemed to have had a lot adjoining the house because we had a lot adjoining to 1109. And the next house, Johnson's, now what her husband's name was, I think it must have been Charlie Johnson, but she, I know she was Laura Johnson, because she lived there a long time. Then the next house was our house, 1109. Then the next house was 1107 and you know I've heard my mother speak many a times about Charlie Wilder, he was a doctor and he, Douglas Wilder, that was his uncle.
I - Charlie Wilder was Douglas Wilder's uncle. OK.
N - And then after that house was, well now I can't remember them putting up this building that is sitting right there now on the corner where Doc Harris use to have his office. He, who was in there ahead of him, oh, the A & P Tea Company, put a store there, that was A & P then, Tea Company, they called it TEA Company. They had a original store on Main Street and my father use to work on Main Street, and he use to go in this store. They had a horse and wagon. They use to deliver stuff then and my father use to go in this store there when he would get off, stop in the market where 17th Street Market is now and pick up things and then he'd go across to this A & P Tea Store and there use to be a peanut store on Main Street, coming to 18th now. Large peanut store, didn't have nothing but peanuts and my father would go in there and he'd bring this five pound bag of peanuts home with his groceries and with what coffee and tea he'd get from the A & P, and then they got to the point that, like I said, they delivered and the man use to come by there. I believe that man's name was Dean, I don't know because I was quite a tot then.
I - How old would you say you were? Maybe four or five?
N - Old enough to know, so I must have been about seven, in that age, and he use to come by and take orders, and then he would come back and deliver and then after the A & P, this man I was telling you about, had this haberdashery store right on the corner, on, now this is the other side of the street, he had this haberdashery store, he was, came from Germany or France or somewhere and he came, the same time that my mother and father moved there. And like I say he could give you the history, he knew everybody. We didn't have anywhere to go to get small things in, so he, then he put up, I don't know if he added to where that A & P store was or, no that wasn't, yeah, I believe that was the A & P, but anyway he, I think they added to it and by that time Dr. Harris had come along.
I - This was Vernon J. Harris.
N - Yes.
I - So you, we was talking about the building on the corner of 29th and Q.
N - Yes.
I - And it first being an A & P store, and then it being taken over by this German or Frenchman, and what was his name?
N - Joseph Hodes. I believe he spell it H-0-D-E-S.
I - Joseph Hodes took over that building?
N - Yes.
I - And you said along the same time Dr. Harris came to Richmond or moved into that building?
N - No, you know, he rented it to A & P, see, before Dr. Harris came to Richmond. Because see, Dr. Harris was, well he was older than I am, but I wouldn't say he was over about three or four years, three years at the most, older than I was, and then see he got out of school and this Joe Hodes, use to brag to people, we say he use to brag to people. I don't think he meant bragging, but he use to tell them, he say, "All the boys that work for me turn out to be doctors or good men," that the way he use to put it. I'm trying to think who was there ahead of Vernon, I don't know but anyway I call him Vernon. We stayed friends all through my life and his son comes here to see me now, when he comes in town. And he came, Vernon came out of school, medical school after this A & P got out of existence. And opened up his office. First he had a office back of that A & P, I believe, just one room or two, something like that. And then after they got out, there was a drugstore. Charlie Johnson, say he's come back here now in retirement, he left here some years ago and went to Washington and he was a druggist, pharmacist and he just worked in stores like a People's Drugstore, everything like that. But I met his sister on the bus, it must have been three or four months ago and she was telling me that he has come back here in his retirement. He is not working or nothing. So. Vernon Harris came out of...
(end of side 1 of tape)
I - OK. Mrs. Flannagan, Vernon Harris came out of school and went to work for Joe Hodes who has a, on 29th and Q and Vernon Harris' office was in the building that at one time had been the A & P store. OK. And then you said after the A & P store left that front of the building became a drugstore?
N - No, yeah, Charlie Johnson moved there to have the drugstore and then when he left, Vernon Harris took over the front part of the store. And see, Vernon lived upstairs over the store and see, Joe Hodes owned that building, he owned that building. And then he made it so Vernon Harris could buy it and the next person who worked for Joe Hodes was my nephew, my sister's son. And he was a doctor.
I - His name?
N - Reginald James. That's Brenda's brother.
I - Reginald James went to work for Joe Hodes and he became a doctor also. So it was some truth in what Joe Hodes said, that people who worked for him became good men or doctors.
N - Yes. And he was crazy about him. He treated him well. And, who was that, somebody else, but I, well anyway, the back, I could sit on 1109 North 29th and he would come on across the street and talk to us, talk to me at least and sometimes he'd come up on the porch and sit, we use to have a swing on the porch. We use to have swings there and Joe Hodes use to say when I want to look for my boys I look over on, he always called my mother Toast, on Toast porch. But he was good to them. I always felt like he was nice to most people on Church Hill. He owned a lot of property. And he was the cause of me being in 27th Street because after my mother's passing, he said, I don't know what arrangements you gone make or if you are planning to sell and he did make this remark, I remember so plainly, he said, "I don't want any more property. Say but I know they want to get rid of that property in 27th Street and this same company Taller and Greg (that was on 8th Street)" he said. "They are my real estate people and if you gonna make a change let me know." And he was the cause of me being in that little house on 27th Street and of course after my mother's death I stayed on 29th Street for two years, I reckon. And then my nephew decided he was goin' to buy it, 1109. They say they was going to keep it in the family.
I - So this would have been around 1939 or there about when you decided to move.
N - I think I bought that house in '37 on 27th Street.
I - In 1937. And what was the address on..?
N - 1115.
I - 1115 on 27th.
N - Yes.
I - And this, this was one in 1937. We talked some about 29th and Q, area being sort of like the social section of, it had a few clubs, I believe and some businesses along P Street.
N -No, you mean 29th and P. They had the social clubs up there and particular after they got rid of the car bond, you know, they used the upstairs for the social club. They never had any social clubs, that I know anything about, all during my lifetime at 29th and Q.
I - So it was 29th and P that they had the social clubs. What was life like around there then? What was social life like, you know, the church is right around the corner, the Fourth Baptist Church. Can you tell me something about that?
N - No, like I said I married kind of an early age. I don't know nothing about much about a social life up in there, but near as I can remember whatever went on was very quiet and everything. But I, I don't know nothing about a social life. I didn't do too much socializing before I was married, because I was from the old school of strict terms and like I said I went to school. I went to shows and my father didn't let cards come in the house. We didn't play no cards then. And ...
I - So you were at, in other words you had a strict upbringing. And I wasn't so much thinking that maybe you participated in the socializing but the fact that that area seemingly has been a sort-of social area or the of activity maybe
N - Yeah, I think that. It, I can remember, next door to that what did I call it, car-bond?
I - This would be the 1000 block of 29th Street?
N - Yeah. But I'm talking about P Street now, next door to where that was. That a nice neighborhood. And I know you've heard about Susie Dabney Scott, she and her husband, as near as I can remember he was the first choir leader they had at Fourth Baptist.
I - And his name was..?
N - Last name was Scott. I don't remember what his first name was. Susie, she, no she played the organ.
I - Yeah, I have heard of a Susie Dabney and I think she taught piano.
N - She did.
I -At one time.
N - But what little music I knew my sister taught me. She use to play and like I said, we'd go to BYPU Sunday afternoon as children. She'd come down Q Street with a spring of children behind her. And there use to be a girl, I don't know what those people whatever become of those people. And I remember she went to Dr. Harris after he got to be a doctor and she said to him, Katie use to carry me to Sunday School, now I wasn't, couldn't have been too much older than she was, you know, so he said, according to the age, you know she had given, and I remember now, my sister use to stop on Q Street at her house, and get her and her sister and we'd go on around the corner to church. Well I couldn't have carried her because I won't doing too much crossing the street by myself, you know then, but that's how she always referred to it and I have heard times back some other Ferguson use to be their names, and I've heard different people say, this Ferguson girl said you use to carry her to Sunday School. I skip over it, because I said it couldn't have been that I carried her as such and but people make those kind of expressions. I know my nephew's wife, Robert James, the one that lost his wife here not long ago, he, his wife taught school and she graduated from Hawthorne, not Hawthorne, you know, Union at 18. And of course she was brilliant person and her mother taught and so this, they ...
I - What was her name?
N - Ethel James.
I - Ethel James.
N - And they sent her up the country to teach I don't know just, I can't now, where the woman say it was, but anyway whenever my nephew and his wife would come over church, this lady use to be on the Usher Board and her name was Winters and Mrs. Winters would say, "this was my first teacher." Well as Mrs. Winter was in the country and didn't get to get in school you know, early and if Ethel taught her she must have taught her right after she come out of Union, you know. But she use to take great pride in saying "Miss James was my first teacher." So people, you know, they, they want to feel young. I don't know what it is. I don't blame them, don't get old until you have to.
I - What about Church, what, what you mentioned the BYPU. What other things did you do at the Church?
N - Go to Sunday School.
I - Sunday School
N - Yes.
I - And who was pastor when you attended?
N - Reverend Payne, Evans Payne.
I - When you first joined?
N - Yes, he baptized me.
I - And do you remember when you got baptized?
N - Didn't it say on that thing, no. I think since that they have taken that record of when you joined Church. But I don't remember the year.
I - It says '50, you know. OK. Fifty years from '72, that would have been '22, 1922.
N - I think, I evidently, I joined Church early. My father was a deacon and we had to go to Sunday School and Church and I remember so well joining. You know, being baptized. And then they use to call, say what they call, talk the candidates for baptism. You had to answer all these questions and I can remember my father said that he wouldn't talk candidates that time because I was in the group. And he wanted the other deacons to talk.
I - So they would ask you questions related to the Bible?
N - Oh yeah, what did you, how did you feel when you got religion and what did the Lord say to you and everything? And I remember when I use to get religion then and go from door to door shake hands, you know, and tell the people I'm converted and this thing and the other thing, and when my father come home, my mother said before he came, he use to come in the side way, what we called the alley gate, and she said you have to tell your father your religion and when he come in, I flying to him and told him that I got converted and I don't know what I remembered that till my death, I reckon. I don't know what prompted me to say this, but well, one thing, he taught Bible all the time. So I, he didn't know I was going to catch on to his hand, but I grabbed his hand and I shook his hand and I told him that I had gotten converted and he said well who told you that, and I said the Lord. That satisfied him. But it was so strange I often wonder about it what prompted me to say that. But I guess people use to get religion then and you walked in there and a straight and narrow path. When they told you I listen at Reverend Taylor sometimes now, when they come up to join church, he say "Keep on praying and walk a straight and narrow path." And we did that not only until it was time to be baptized, because that's the way they do now. But you wouldn't bit more let nobody see you do like these children do now, of course, this is a different time and you couldn't dare to compare it. But anyway I use to always think about it. I use to look at the children going up there and if one would get up, all of them would pop up and go up one right behind the other. I say to myself, wonder what in the world do they feel or do they get. Of course, there are some still that stays in the straight and narrow paths. I'll say that and prove to be good citizens and children and everything, and when people criticize Reverend Taylor I always think because I don't think another minister in the City goes to court more often and try to help these young people than he does.
(end of side 2 of tape)
I - OK. Mrs. Flannagan we were talking about family life and we talked some about your husband and the kind of work he did, and the work that you are doing. And you were mentioning something about walking the different people going at one time to different churches for communion and would you pick up on that? What church did you, what was some of the churches that you all went to as a child for communion?
N - We use to go to Mount Olivet and we went to Mount Taber, that was called, out there in Woodsville. Other than those two, we didn't...
I - And Mount Taber is a good distance from the 1100 block of 29th Street, or was, and you said you all walked out there? And walked back, so ...
N - And then we thought we were really getting somewhere, use to be a deacon there named Burton, Mr. Burton, and he got a horse and a surry and we would walk out there and he would bring us back.
I - So you'd get a treat sometimes, a Deacon Burton?
N - Burton. And he, I think all of them are gone but anyway we would go out there and we'd get out there early. People used to make homemade ice cream then. My mother had a freezer about that high and my father use to eat it by the soup bowl, and ...
I - These are the hand freezers you talking about?
N - That's it. And we use to go out there, get out there early and we like walking out there because when we'd get to Mr. Burton's they'd serve us ice cream and she had made this pound cake, a great big 5 lb. pound cake, and we would have that for dessert and if we were late getting up there or anything they'd serve us that after communion, his wife, he and his wife.
I - And they lived in Woodsville?
N - They lived right opposite the Church. They were nice people, my father he use to raise a pig or hog or whatever you call it, for my father every year. See out there they could have cow, hog, horses, and what have you. But where we were had been incorporated and see we couldn't have nothing like that, although I can remember slightly, about, I can remember, slightly about a well on 29th Street. And my father would draw this water and my brother would be drawing this bucket of water and everything and my mother, that's the way my mother washed. Draw the water.
I - So there was a well. Was it in the 1100 block?
N -Yes.
I - Of 29th Street. Because that area, I think was rural up until 1906. I guess you would have been about 4 years old when that block came into the City. You mentioned a brother. Were there other children in your family?
N - I had a brother and two sisters.
I - Well what were their names?
N - Brenda's mother, she was a Mrs. James and then she married a second times. She was Mrs. Howard, and after Gwen's father passed and my brother was William Toast. And I had a sister. I was the youngest and I had a sister between all of that, my mother lost a set of twins in between, and then my sister in between that was Monroe Smith's mother. She was a Eva, her name was Eva Toast and they, see they were, the children. She died with a baby and she left two babies and my mother raised them. By that time I had gotten back home with my three so you see I had a big family.
I - So it was your brother William and your sister Eva and yourself in the family?
N -Yes. And my sister Rosa.
I - And your sister Rosa.
N - She was the oldest.
I - And you mentioned that you had three children and their names?
N - Yes. Jarrod. I gave him the family name of my mother, Jarrod Toast Flannagan, and Ida Beatrice Flannagan, until she got to be a Booker, and Joseph. I named him after my husband, Cecil Flannagan and Jarrod is the only one that's ever been away from home. He went to school in Baltimore. His daddy took him up there and he lived when he was in Baltimore, with his aunt and Jarrod stayed there and visited. They say that Baltimore had the first Vocational School, now I don't know how accurate that was, but anyway he went up there, and he can do just about anything with his hands. It was good training for him and he is still there.
I - We've covered pretty much your family history and schools that you attended and church, and something about the neighborhood, at least the neighborhood in 29th Street. Could you tell us something about the neighborhood on 27th Street?
N - That was nice. Everybody there owned their own homes in that block. And of course I was still working. I, like I say, I never got a chance to be too neighborly but I knew the people, you know to speak, as I would come and go. I tell you who lived across the street from me at 27th, not across the street, diagonally, Fred Cheatham. I don't know if you ever heard of him. He has a, they were all musical and his, the family of them went to Mount Olivet Church.
I - I think I do know who you are talking about. I remember two brothers. One was heavy set and one was sort of thin and I remember them. I can't remember too much about their parents, but they, brothers, both I think a little older than myself and I imagine now they should be close to fifty, the two boys.
N - I imagine so, but like I say he was musical, the father, and they give family concerts up until, yeah about three or four years ago in Mount Olivet Church. And they nice children, all of them, and next to that was Scotts, Edloe Scott.
I - Edloe Scott?
N - Yes. And he didn't have but one son, that son didn't have but one son. And then the next house was a family of people named Williams. I'm sure that their children, yeah, June, one, the daughter, is a member of Mount Olivet Church. She served on the Usher Board. I don't know where the boys are, but hey re still living, as far as I know. And they went n down the block and Everett Price had a brother that lived in the next house, he was Price, all this was right in front of me on 27th, then the next house was Franklins and they had children. They had one daughter named Juanita. She still teaches. She lives in Northside, she lives on Greenwood Avenue, I believe. Well anyway we, once in awhile come across each other, and then the next house was that, when Walter took that place on the corner for a undertaker place.
I - And this is Walter J. Manning, you are talking about?
N - Yes. And then coming down on my side of the street, as I said, there were apartment houses the next house somebody named Hubbard. I never did know them too well, but well all those people look like up on that end worked in the factory, either at, or you know, Philip Morris or somewhere like that. And they'd leave early in the morning, then they would come back before I would get out, so anyway then the next house was Lucy Howlett and she still there. You know this Reverend Howlett, you hear them talking about?
I - Yes.
N - That's her nephew. Then the next house was my house. On the next side of me was a family named Scotts, now I don't know where they came from, but anyway they came in later years. I don't, I can't remember who was there ahead of them. And then going on up was another family of people they were and I can't remember their names. But the next thing was that Methodist Church. The yard, you know, on 27th Street, that was right there, that's a Sanctified Church there now, right at the corner of 27th and Q.
I - Moved there for awhile,
N -Yes. They moved from there to Marshall Street. They were all quiet people. You never heard, you know, no hurrah or nothing of the kind. Nowhere I ever lived, I feel like I was very fortunate, because my children went to school and during my mother's time, when they come from school, they had to come straight home and I had a cousin who said to me when my mother passed, she said, "don't worry, I'm gonna be with you." Well she was high in years then, but it was a help to know that some older person was there. You know, when they would come, and then when I moved to 27th Street, she moved with me, of course, she couldn't do any work then, and she was home and everything. But like I say, as a child I had a lovely childhood, I cannot say anything except I had good parents. My father never wanted my mother to work and she was always a person to stay at home. And everybody who went out, she went to the door with them and said goodbye. That was just the way she was, got up every morning at 6:00 in the morning. My father had to go to work and she'd get up and give him whatever he wanted to eat and he would go on to work. My sister taught a while, older sister, and she had children, and they came and he moved from there to 34th Street. Did you ever know where the Christians lived on 4th Street?
I - Yes.
N - Well that was a nice neighborhood. My sister lived there. Reverend Wallace lived next to that and the Pattersons. Oh all these was church people. I don't say that church makes the people, it's got to be the person, but they all were either deacons of some church or worked in the church, in some capacity. I can remember all the evenings we often speak about it, all the 1100 block from Q to R, you can almost see the people and they were all nice people. I remember when Everett Price moved right there where they i's now. I knew hi's wife.
I - You are talking about the funeral director, J. Everett Price?
N - Yes. He was in the 1100 block on ...
I - On 25th.
N - Yes. and when the boy was buried, Box James, last week, I remember Everett Price wife was, Esther Preston. I don't think he married anybody before Esther and all of us use to be friends as young people .
I - With Mrs. Flannagan on her involvement with the American Association for Retired Persons.
N - I was glad to get out of that harness. I tell you who the first President of our group was, it was the American Association of Retired Persons, you heard of that?
I -Yes, the American Association of Retired Persons and you said you were president of that group for about five years.
N -Yes.
I -What year was this? The White House Conference on Aging?
N -Yes. That was in what, '71. Just had one last year, and now colored, it was supposed to be a integrated organization. It was a large organization, suppose to be integrated and I went to Oklahoma for the conference and I represented the first black group, I think ever went into it and like I said I was quite active then. But of course that I can't do anything like that now. But and I was well received, and I obtained a lot of information because I didn't have any idea what was going on.
I - And this was the American Association ...
N - Association of Retired Persons. And it's often called AARP for short. Let's see, what was I, the fourth President they had. Willy Hall was first, Miss Susie Williams was second, and then they had a fellow by the name of Chauncy Harris. He was third and I came next.
I - So you were the fourth President of the American Association of Retired Persons.
N - Chapter 390. See that's the chapter here, but you see that takes in a area all over everywhere, and I couldn't say, you know, whether for the whole area. But each chapter has their own office, now they have one at Imperial Plaza. And I don't know how many colored they have in there, but we didn't have but one colored, in our set up, there at the Y, and she was a Mrs. Cary, Miss Cary, I don't know if you ever heard of her.
I - You say at the Y, where was the Y located? Is that the Y on Chamberlayne, located on Chamberlayne Avenue?
N -Yes, that was Chamberlayne, but you know they took that from us.
I -Yeah, I understand that they did close that building.
N -I, and see,everything that happened now, happened down there on Fifth Street. You know as I always said, the old Y was down there on Fifth Street, at Fifth and Franklin. Down in that area.
I -So you are saying that your representation or your presidency of this organization, the American Association of Retired Persons started the integration of that organization, and this ...
N - As far as, yeah, because like I say everywhere we went after that we were speckled you know what I mean. And I don't know, I remember it would be good if you could come to some of our free Thanksgiving dinners, you know, we have a history and this person they wanted me to do it this year, but like I said I had surgery two years ago, and I, it made me nervous and I don't like facing people like I once did. And I don't want to take nothing to, you know, I don't like taking, they give you a pill for this and that and none of the other. I say you might get hooked on that stuff. You don't know, but anyway the, she gave a nice history of it, and how we got started with it. It seems that they said Willy Hall was with the Urban League and they sent for him to come to Washington for some meeting or something and they asked if he could, they would send a representative. To organize, of course, I, I hadn't retired then, organize a group here and they did. So that's the way we got started with it.
I - And this was around 1970? Or there about?
N - No this was later than that, that was what it was earlier, I meant to say they meant 1970. Let me see if I can get this.
I - So what we are saying is that the organization itself got started around 1963, somewhere along there. And by 1974 you had become president. You mentioned earlier in your statement that you hadn't retired then, and I don't think we talked any about what kind of work did you do, what did you retire from?
N - From maid, at the Commonwealth of Virginia you know, they have maids down there. They still do, I think. I'm sure they do. In the Capital Square there.
I - Was this enjoyable work, did you find it enjoyable?
N - Yeah. I didn't have any problems, you know, everybody seemed happy about it. Before that I use to work as a waitress, I worked when I first started to work, I worked as a waitress and there was a place on Broad Street by the name of Dailey's. It was a restaurant, Dailey's, and Occidental was around the corner on 8th and they were the two outstanding restaurants in the City. I worked first at Dailey's, as a salad girl, we had just commence to pass around the salad they use to pass it around, then use to have a great big wooden bowl and after, everybody who ordered the dinner, then go to have a great big wooden bowl and after, everybody who ordered the dinner, then go to the table and would dish out the salad. They had some little plates and sometimes they would give you a tip, but when I commence to waiting, that's where I did get tipped, you know. And it was so strange, I come in, I went to that place, a friend of mine was working there, you know, Naomi Moss.
I - Yes.
N - She carried me there and after I had been there awhile, she asked this man to let me wait on the tables. I had never waited on no tables, and in fact I didn't work out until after I was married, you know, and so I stayed there until he went out of business.
I - This was at Dailey's?
N - Yes. He was from way down South. And he was just about as red as
I - Can you remember his name?
N - Yes, what was his last name? Godfrey.
I - Godfrey.
N - Yes, of course, he had men, he didn't never want woman to wait on table in there he had men. Of course, after the woman commence to come in there to waiting and everything then the men went more to the hotels and places of that kind. And so anyway, like I say, and the funniest thing the men didn't want the women to wait there and sometimes they would watch and see what kind of tip these people would give and if they gave you a great big tip, they say I feel sorry for you because you a woman. It was comical like I said, it many comical things that happened in there. And ten years.
I - You stayed at Dailey's about ten years and you had already gotten married and you were how old when you got married?
N - Eighteen.
I - So eighteen that would have been around 1920 and ten would be around 1930. Does that sound right, when you were at Dailey's, or you know, during the time you were working at Dailey's? And we mentioned getting married. I don't think we mentioned your husband's name.
N - Joseph Flannagan.
I - Joseph Flannagan. You married Joseph Flannagan in what year?
N - Now I know you think I'm dumb, but wait a minute, I married at 18.
I - OK. So that would have been 1920. And you worked shortly, right after getting married you went to work at Dailey's and then you worked there about ten years, and then you went to Occidental.
N - Occidental never had any woman work there.
I - Oh, OK.
N - They, I went from there to this state office building, you know, down in the Capital.
I - Did you meet any, at the state office building, Mrs., let's say around 1930, and the latter part of the Depression, did you meet any interesting people? Did you meet any of the, the governor, for example, or any people like that at the state office building?
N - You didn't meet anybody like that because you know how prejudice people was back there and we would see them sometimes you know but not to meet them.
I - What exactly were you doing at the state office building?
N - Cleaning.
I - Cleaning. So the hours that you cleaned was it during the day?
N - Yes. Cleaned everyday, and then when they commence to cut down I just said they asked the ones if they would like to work all day or take a evening job, we worked from 5 to 9 in the evening job and I later worked from 5 to 9 in the evening job and I liked that much better because I could be home.
I - Well, before then when did you work, before your five to nine?
N - From 8 until 4:30, I think. We had a enough, I think they still have the shifts like that now.
I - What kind of work did Mr. Flannagan do?
N - He was on the boat, mostly Merchant Marines and he ran from Norfolk to Baltimore and then they come in to have state you know to live.
I - So he was a Merchant Seaman?
N - Yes.
I - So I would imagine he had some interesting things to tell.
N - I don't know. No I can't say a whole lot about him, because he didn't prove very good, however, as much as I hate to say it and I don't say it in front of my children.
I - So, and I'm not prying into that, I just was wondering.
N - You know how a seaman and as I said, porters, inland, now my people all railroad people, other than my husband because you see my husband was born in Norfolk, came from Norfolk and everything. And all they knew was water. And all my people here, all they knew was land. So like I said, he, I reckon he wasn't too bad. I know one thing he had gotten a good age, before he realized what a family how nice to be with a family, but like I said, and I will always content that children love their father. Regardless. And like I say, I never I never said anything bad concerning him to them and I wouldn't even. [End of transcript.]
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