Transcript of interview with Mrs. Maggie Alease Taylor Jackson Howard. Interview conducted Novemer 1, 1982 by Linda McGowan.
Mrs. Howard, I would like to get a little bit of your family history, give me your full name, your address, and where you were born.
N - My full name is Maggie Alease Taylor Jackson Howard.
I - And where were you born?
N - I was born 1405 North 27th Street.
I - Who were your parents?
N - My daddy was John Taylor and my mother was Maggie Gardner Taylor.
I -Were they Richmond residents?
N -Yes.
I -Were they born in Church Hill, or do you know?
N - No. They were born in County. My daddy was born in Henrico County.
I - And your mother?
N - She was born in Church Hill.
I - OK. Now your father's name is John Taylor?
N - That's right.
I - OK. Now how long did he live, do you remember his death date?
N - Let's see.
I - Or even if you say the month or the year.
N - He died in February, 19 and 15.
I - OK. And your mother?
N - My mother died 1919.
I - OK. And what is your birthday Mrs. Howard?
N - My birthday is September 14, 1902, 1 was born.
I - 1902. And how old are you?
N - I'm 80 years old.
I - 80 years old. Very good, very good. Did you have any brothers andsisters?
N - Oh, yes.
I - Could you give me their names?
N - Well, my oldest sister's name was Elizabeth Taylor and then the next child was John Taylor and the next one was Alberta Taylor. She died when she was a baby and I wasn't born yet, but they told me.
I - Did, were all of you born at the same address?
N - I think so.
I - OK. That address was 14 what?
N - 1405 27th Street.
I - OK, North 27th Street. What, OK, where did you live, 900 North 24th Street? Is any of the members of your family still living in Church Hill?
N - No. All of them died, but my one sister Elnora Robinson, she is at Washington.
I - Oh, she is living in Washington now. OK.
N - Yes.
I - How long did, how long was your family on 27th Street? That you can remember? How old were you when you moved from 27th Street?
N - Around six years old.
I - OK. And where did your family move?
N - Moved on 1125 North 29th Street.
I - OK. So that wasn't that far. You were still in the same basic neighborhood.
N - Yes.
I - Which schools did you attend while you were in the neighborhood?
N - George Mason School.
I - And how long were you in George Mason?
N - I was in Genrge Mason until I was eleven.
I - And do you remember any of your teachers?
N - Yes, I remember Mrs. Susie Dabney, she was one teacher, and ...
I - Any principals and classmates?
N - Yes.
I - Who was your classmates?
N - Rosa Wilkerson, Rosa Robinson Wilkerson and Deta Harris.
I - Anybody else?
N - Yes, it is quite a few of them, they go from me, but I
I - Now you were six years old when you were on 27th Street. Can you remember a little bit about 27th Street in the 1400 block? Some of the families that lived there?
N - Yes. A lady named Mrs. Halsey Robinson and Mrs. Effie Robinson there was Rosa Robinson's mother.
I - They were living in that block?
N - Oh yeah.
I - And what do you remember most about your childhood years on 27th Street in the 1400 block?
N - Well I know, I know I had a mighty good time.
I - OK. Now I know in talking with some other people they said that sometimes they had a well in the backyard or they had a community well. Did your family have a well in the backyard or did you have a community well?
N - No we had a well in the backyard but we would go and get water from thespring for drinking, because the well water was not good tasting.
I - And where was the spring?
N - The spring was, let me see where it's at, down 33rd Street, way down.
I - And how old were you when you could remember that well? Were you still on 27th Street?
N - Yes.
I - OK. Didn't you move to the 1200 block of 29th?
N - Eleven.
I - 1100 block, and you were about, how long did you stay in that block?
N - Oh, I stayed there until I was about, let me see, I reckon about 10 years old.
I - And what was some of the families that lived in the 1100 block of 29th Street?
N - Mrs. Sally White and Mrs. Laura Johnson, Mrs. Rosa Toast and Mr. Charlie Stevens, he lived in that block.
I - Again did you all still have wells or were you goinq to a community water, or what? In the backyard, or..?
N - Let's see, we had a well, yeah, because we use to use a pump there which made it a little better. Didn't go the spring.
I - Oh you didn't go to the spring then? OK. All right. Do you remember any businesses around in the 1100 block of 29th Street? You were eleven years old before you left there. Do you remember any businesses?
N - Well at the corner was Joe Hodes. He had a clothing store and Peter Nigro was on 29th Street.
I - What was that?
N - That was a confectionary store. It sold ice cream.
I - And do you know what hundred block?
N - The, yeah that was the 1000 block.
I - And it was called Peter Nigro Confectionary Shop?
N - Yes.
I - Was he black or was he a white?
N - No. He was a Jew.
I - Oh he was Jewish. OK. And what about Joe Hodes?
N - Joe Hodes was a Jew.
I - And he had a clothing shop?
N - Yeah.
I - Do you remember anything about any black businesses? When you were eleven or ten years old?
N - Let me see now. What was his name, a man had a fish shop, but I can't think what his name was.
I - What block was it in?
N - Well he wasn't on 29th Street. He was on 28th Street. I can't think of that man's name to save my life.
I - What hundred block?
N - In the 1000 block.
I - Ten hundred block. OK. Now you said that you were at George Mason until you were six ...
N - I went when I was six.
I - Oh you went to George Mason when you was six years old?
N - Yes.
I - How long did you stay in George Mason?
N - Until I was eleven.
I - Until you were eleven. Then where did you go?
N - Yes. I didn't go to school any more.
I - Oh you did not go to school any more?
N - No, I stopped.
I - OK. What did you do?
N - Was at home.
I - You was at home?
N - Yeah. I was the youngest child, so I just was at home.
I - Oh you were the baby. OK. So you stayed at home with momma?
N - That's right. She had ten children. I was the youngest of them.
I - Oh you had ten?
N - Yes.
I - Oh. OK. So you were really the baby? What church did you go to?
N - Fourth Baptist. Same church I going to now.
I - Oh really.
N - That's right.
I - So you been a member of Fourth Baptist for how many years?
N - All my life.
I - All of your life. That's right. Were your parents members of FourthBaptist?
N - My daddy, he was a deacon.
I - Your daddy was. Oh, OK. And ...
N - My mother belongs to First Baptist Church.
I - Oh really. First Baptist where ...
N - African.
I - First African Baptist Church. OK.
N - That's right.
I - OK. So do you remember any of the pastors at Fourth Baptist Church?
N - Reverend Evans Payne. Rev. Williams.
I - OK. Now Reverend Payne was your first pastor and then after him came...
N - Reverend Williams.
I - Reverend Williams.
N - And Reverend Brown.
I - Then Reverend Brown.
N - Then Reverend Taylor.
I - And then Reverend Taylor. OK. Now Reverend Payne, what type of person was he and how old were you when you remember Reverend Payne?
N - Well I was a pretty bug girl when he died. He was a fine man, big, great big heavy built man, and he was very lively and a very dynamic preacher and he could sing and raise your hair up on your head.
I - Was he a teacher, or did he just preach?
N - No. He just preached.
I - He just preached at Fourth Baptist Church?
N - That's right.
I - What other people in the church do you remember during your young years?
N - Mr. Toast.
I - What did he do?
N - That's Mrs. Katie Flannagan's daddy.
I - Katie Flannagan's daddy?
N - Yes. He was a deacon.
I - OK. He was a deacon, who else?
N - Mr. Gilliam.
I - Mr. Gilliam?
N - Yeah, he was a deacon and Mr. Alpheus Scott, L. C. Scott's daddy. Yes, he was there. He was a deacon and let me see who else? Mr. Isaac Ricks. He was a deacon, Randolph Rick's daddy, and now who else? I know the deacons pretty good because they was with my daddy, you know.
I - Right. Right. OK. What type of activities did you participate inChurch?
N - I didn't participate in nothing much. I had to go to Sunday School, but I didn't do anything.
I - Do you remember some of your Sunday School teachers?
N - Who was teaching at that time? That I can't remember. But I had some good teachers. And I can't remember that.
I - OK. That willl probably come back to you. Now you were on 29th Street until you were what--ten years old? Where did you move then?
N - Back to 27th Street.
I - In what hundred block?
N - 1400 block. 1422 27th Street.
I - 27th Street. So you were in the same block that you were born in?
N - Yes, across the street.
N - That's right.
I - How old were you then?
N - I was around twelve.
I - And how long did you live there?
N - Well, I stayed there until I went to New Jersey. And I was around 19 years old then.
I - Oh really.
N - Yes. My mother died, my daddy was dead, my mother died and then I went on around, went on to New Jersey. For a year. And I lived there.
I - Did you work in New Jersey?
N - Oh yeah.
I - OK. Now from age 12 to 19 basically what did you do? You were at home with your mother. Did you help her, did she work?
N - I did domestic work.
I - OK. You did domestic work. Where did you work?
N - Well, for different families.
I - OK. Do you remember some of the names of some of the families andaddresses?
N - A Mrs., what was her name? A Mrs. Laura, can't think, what Mrs. Laura's last name was.
I - Where did she live?
N - She lived up 27th Street, I think in the 800 block.
I - Anybody else?
N - Then I worked for a Mrs. Woody, and she lived on 26th Street.
I - In the what hundred block?
N - I think it was in the 800 block.
I - Anybody else?
N - There was a lady that lived on Broad Street. I worked for her, let see now what is her name?
I - It might come back to you.
N - It went away from me.
I - What, OK. When say you worked as a domestic help, what was your responsibilities? What did you have to do?
N - Well, help clean up the house, wash dishes, and things like that.
I -How did the ladies treat you?
N - Treated me fine.
I - You didn't have any problems, you basically went from a black neighborhood, in the same geographic area, you walked, I suspect.
N - Yeah, I walked.
I - And you didn't have any problems?
N - No, I didn't have any problems. Got along nicely with people. They knew me and they knew my mother.
I - And how was the relationship with the blacks and whites in the community?
N - Well, they were, they look at blacks, like black, you know they didn' tthink they were equal to them, but when you working for those that I worked for they treat me all right, but still they felt like that I our place was not up there with them. They felt like that you was kind of down, you know, they didn't feel that you was up to their standards.
I - Now you stayed in New Jersey for a year. And then you came back to Richmond, is that correct?
N - That's right.
I - And did you come back to Church Hill?
N - Oh yeah.
I - Where did you live then?
N - I lived 1414 27th Street.
I - Oh, you come back to live in the same place?
N - My sister was living there. I came back to live with her.
I - Oh and how long did you live with your sister?
N - Well, I stayed with her until I got married.
I - OK and who did you marry?
N - Married George Jackson.
I - And when did you get married?
N - Let's see what year was that? That was about fifty or sixty years ago, about 57 years ago.
I - Did you have any children?
N - One son.
I - His name was..?
N - George Carlton Jackson.
I - Were you working, or did you stay at home with the baby?
N - Well, no, I went out to work some.
I - Still work domestic, you were still working in homes?
N - Yes. And George Jackson he died when I had been married three years.
I - So.
N - I came on back to 1414 27th Street with my sister.
I - OK. All right. And how long were you there that time? You had been married three years, had a little boy. And you were stillworking. Do you remember any families, had the families moved outof the block then? You were a young lady then.
N - Mr. Archi'e Coles.
I - Who else was in the block?
N - Lived in that block right next door to us, and Mr.Felix, now what was their names?
I - Do youremember any businesses?
N - Yeah, there was a store, right at the corner, 1400 block.
I - Do you know the name of it?
N - They were Jews. I use to know the name, but I can't call it right now.
I - How long did you live on 27th Street, after you returned after threeyears of marriage? Do you remember?
N - I stayed there until I married Isaiah Howard, and then I moved from mysister's and went to 1223 North 24th Street.
I - Oh all right. Now Mr. Howard, was he a Church Hill person? a Richmonder?
N - Oh yes.
I - OK. Where was his family? Where did he, where did his family come from? From what part of Church Hill?
N - His family lived 1223, I don't know where they moved, you know came fromthere, but they bought that home there on 1223 North 24th Streetand that's where they lived.
I - And so you came back to the old home place?
N - Oh yes.
I - OK. And how long did you live in the 1200 block of North 24th Street?
N - I stayed there until my boys had gotten, finished school. They were over here up at George Mason. And my youngest son was just comingout of George Mason School and I started to try to buy this houseand that's how I got from 1223 N orth 24th Street.
I - OK. So you had more than one son by then. How many other children didyou have?
N - Oh yeah, two sons.
I -You got two boys and you stayed on in the 1200 block of 24th Street for how many years? Just a rough estimate.
N - About 12 years.
I - About 12 years, and that was long enough for your boys to go to George Mason School?
N - Yes.
I - Was that the only black elementary school in Church Hill?
N - So far as I know. It was a school on Mosby Street School. But George Mason was the main school around here.
I - And then you moved here to 900 North 24th Street?
N - That's right.
I - And how long have you been here?
N - I've been here about 30 years, or more.
I - About 30 years. That's beautiful, that's beautiful. And all that time you belonged to Fourth Baptist Church. Tell me a little bit about some of the businesses and the social activities while you were growing up. What were the things that people really turned outfor? Socially.
N - Oh going to Buckroe Beach. That was the main thing at that time.
I - Who sponsored the trips?
N - The Church.
I - The Church would sponsor it?
N - Yes, different churches. They would sponsor the trip to Buckroe Beachbut it was some tremendous crowd. That was during Reverend Payne's time. Oh, we had a crowd, going sure as you born, we, they was riding the train then. And they was having a time, and they'd go down Main Street, station and take that train and go on to Buckroe Beach.
I - Buckroe Beach was segregated. You had black and white. Or were there, was it all black?
N - Well, Buckroe was for the whites, we say Buckroe Beach, but it was Buckroe and it was two places, one was for the whites and the one was for the colored.
I - Any other social events? I remember somebody talking about skating on P Street or Q Street. People skating up and down P Street and QStreet.
N - Yeah. Well at that time they had a streetcar station on29th and P Street, and they use to, they, the Seven Pines Car would come on up to, up 29th Street and go around behind there, and that's where they, you know the end of the station. From Seven Pines. And so that's where all of them use to, the young people use to go up there and just have a good time all around there. The people come up, you know, and down on the streetcar they go up thereand they have a good time. That was the main thing on Church Hill at that time.
I - How did people celebrate holidays? This is the Halloween season and did people do a lot of trick-or-treating, or was it a Halloween parade?
N - Yes, they use to have a good time. Trick-or-treating andChristmas time was a real tilme from Christmas Day to New Year'sDay. That whole week was Christmas and that's where everybody celebrates. And so, when my mother use to get ready for Christmas, she would spread a table and she would every kind of cake on there you could think of, she had fruit cake and plain cake and pound cake and layer cake and pies, sweet potato, coconut, pumpkin, apple, and that was put in the middle of the table. She had a round table and she would put all that in the table, on the table, andput a great big white table cloth over it and everybody, and a bunch of plates right on the side and when anybody came in, "Won't you have some Christmas." Well yeah, if they would have some Christmas, they pick a plate and pick what every they want out that fruit and stuff on the table, like pies, all of that, like that, so one man came there one time, two days after Christmas, and he came there. I think it was one of my daddy's friends, but my daddy wasn't home when he came. So "have some Christmas". He said, "yes, Ma'am" and he went and got his self a piece of fruit cake, and he ate that fruit cake, and came back and got some more fruit cake and he ate that, went back and got some more fruit cake. So momma said, "Won't you have some supper." He said, "No ma'am this crackling bread is good enough for me." Called momma's fruitcake crackling bread.
I - I know she was out done.
N - Yeah, just let him sit there and eat the crackling bread. That was as much as he want. When he left there, she said I'll never put my whole fruit cake on the table no more, all the rest of it stayed there, but that fruit cake she had to put ten slices on the table and then cover it up. Now anybody want any had to take a sliceof that. Now he had sat and eat a half a fruit cake, talking about some crackling bread.
I - I tell you. You mentioned your husband. What did Mr. Howard do for an occupation? You said he was born in the 1200 block?
N - Yes. He worked at the C&O Shop.
I - Where was that, do you remember?
N - 17 Street.
I - Oh down 17th Street. And what about Mr. Jackson, where did he work?
N - Well, he worked in the market most of the time.
I - What market was that?
N - Down, downtown, 17th Street Market.
I - And what about your children. You said you had two sons?
N - I had three sons.
I - Oh you had three sons.
N - One son by Jackson and two sons by Howard.
I - Oh, OK. Now give me their names again. George Jackson.
N - Yeah.
I - John Howard and who else?
N - And Isaiah Howard.
I - And what are they doing?
N - Well, John, John was teacher for the, what you call it, under, ?
I - RCAP. Rithmond Community Action Program.
N - Yeah. Well Isaiah, he went in the service at 18. He stayed in there and joined the para-troopers. And start to jumping out airplanes and it tore his nerves up. And so they had to let him come out.
I - Yeah.
N - So that is what he is doing now.
I - And what about George?
N - Well George, he work for the, I can't think of the name of the folks that he was working for. He was working for the people that, like a huh.
I -Driving and unloading trucks. OK.
N - Yeah. But now, right now, he was working for the people at the RCAP. He was like a den father. That what he was doing here. And so he worked at that job, he went and got a education for that, to dothat kind of work. Working as a den father.
I - Well, that is good.
N - And he worked at it for three or four years. Well he was ready for apromotion but they say it won't no higher they could put him, not here in Richmond.
I - Right, right.
N - So, they had a job in Cincinnati that he would be over the den father so then what did they do, so that's what he's doing now.
I - Oh is he in Cincinnati now? Oh OK, all right. OK. What about famous or influential people, I know you mentioned Reverend Payne as one as you were growing up. Did you know Reverend Bowler? Do youremember him?
N - Oh yes indeed, I know Reverend Bowler.
I - OK. Now he was a teacher and he was also a minister.
N - Also a minister.
I - What church was he a minister of, do you know?
N - Mount Olivet.
I - Oh, it was Mount Olivet.
N - Baptist Church.
I - Was he one of your teachers?
N - Yes.
I - Did you ever come in contact with him?
N - Yes indeed, when I got up to the eleventh grade I was right there withhim.
I - Which school did he teach from then?
N - George Mason.
I - Oh, George Mason.
N - Seventh grade.
I - Seventh grade. So was George Mason considered elementary, junior highor high school or what?
N - When you left George Mason to go to high school you had practically thething you was goin get. When you got in high school, all thosethings, that was taught you, Reverend Bowler and those teachers there, the things that they taught you there, you just was kinda like reviewing.
I - Oh, I see, I see. Was George Mason at the same spot it is now, or it was a, I 've heard of another school, a little annex building?
N - Yeah it was, way down 29th Street.
I - What hundred block do you remember it?
N - I think it was the, I think it was the 1100 block, no it wasn't eleven, it must have been 1200 block, and that was just a wood building. And that, that was the last grade, the seventh.
I - So you were talking about the annex building for George Mason where aReverend Bowler taught. And you said Susie Dabney taught thereand son-e other teachers. And that was down in the 1100 block of 29th Street?
N - That's right.
I - OK.
N - No 1200 block.
I - 1200 block and it was just a wooden structure. What about some famous people, or, or unusual events? That people just went to see, doyou remember anybody special coming to town, or anything unusualhappening that made an impression on everybody?
N - Many things have happened. Just can't think right now.
I - OK. While you're thinking about that, what about the Depression, World War I and II? Were they before your time?
N - Yeah, that was a terrible time. You had to stand in line to get sugarand for practically everything important. So that was a real bad time.
I - Was people really hungry during that time?
N - Yes indeed they were that. And you just couldn't, they stand in line to get five pounds of sugar.
I - And how long was that suppose to last you?
N - I don't know how long it was suppose to last.
I - I mean could you go every week to get five pounds of sugar or once a month?
N - No I don't think they went that often.
I - Once a month?
N - About once a month, I reckon.
I - What about the World Wars? What about the Wars, what war do you remember the most? Korean War, World War II?
N - I remember World War 1. My brother was suppose to go, but he had one eye and that's what kept him out. He was a big strong healthy man and he went down to the spring, down there drinking waterand some white boys or something on the hill with a shot gun, and one of them hollored to him and said "give me an aim." He's drinking water and the boys that was with him said yeah, and he lift his head up just at that time and them fellows shot him right in the eye.
I -What?
N -Yeah. So he lost his sight in that one eye. But he was a strong healthy man and so he just couldn't see out that one eye, but they, it looked like he had double sight in the one that he could see out of, so he got long all right.
I - What about World War II? What do you remember most about that? Did you have any family members to participate in World War II?
N - Yeah, my nephews. They went in World War 11 and so I remember that very well.
I - You didn't work in any factories or anything like that, you didn't workin any factories during the War?
N - Yeah. I worked at Laros Tobacco Factories and I worked at P. LorillardCo. I worked for them.
I - What were they doing?
N - Picking tobacco.
I - Oh, that was just, oh both of them were tobacco. OK. What about the Korean conflict? Do you remember, do you have any family members?
N - I don't think I had any members of the family that went to Korean War.
I -Viet Nam? (I was in during the War but didn't see any action) OK. OK.
N - That's Isaiah.
I - Anything else you want to add, Mrs. Howard, concerning your life, living in Church Hill, how you felt about it, any changes you see to the community? How has the community changed from the time you've lived here as a little girl growing up, as now, as a woman, mature woman?
N - Well, when I was young and growing up, the families were very close and they would help each other and anything happen at one person'shouse, it was just happening to the whole block. Everybody was up set and concerned. But now these people is not like that. They just done growed so far apart until somebody can die right next door and you'll never know it. That's way it is now.
I - And that is sad to say isn't it? It really is.
N - It's very sad.
I - How have you seen the church change? Do you feel like there has been any change not say Fourth Baptist Church, but just the way peoplego to church and participate in church activities? Have you seen any changes?
N - Well, it's a great, lot of changes because one time people went to church. They really was, meant what they said, they go there, you know, expecting to get great things to help them spiritually, but people look like they lost interest of the church, most of the churches, they don't have that interest like we use to have.
I - Why do you think that is true?
N - I don't know, getting away from God, all I can say. Just getting away from God. Use to be closer to God, it seemed, than they are now, but now they seem like they just gone for the world and ain't thinking about the church.
I - Did they have things lilke marijuana drugs like that? Did you hear much about that kind of foolishness?
N - No, not way back. That's more of that happening now.
I - And what about crime? You know, how were there a lot of crimes?
N - No, you could go out in the street any time of day and night and nobody bothered you, but you bet not go out there now. Any kind of way 'cause you get mugged and killed for nothing.
I - And that's very sad, but it's true.
N - Yes it is.
I - It really is. Anything else you'd like to saya bout your life and living on Church Hill? What is has meant to you?
N - Well it has meant a whole lot to me, I tell you. I've gotten a whole lot of life. I try to be a Christian and I try to serve the Lord the best I know how. And try to encourage others. When I got converted I remember my mother say, "Ask the Lord what he would have you to do, go back and ask him." And I got that thing in my mind and I prayed. I said Lord, what will you have me to do. Call Christians from the errant ways and teach sinners of the danger of falling into Hell, that's what came to me. So I told my mother. She said well you know what that mean, that mean that you can't do any and every kind of thing and go tell somebody else what trying to do right. You got to do right yourself. And I, that stuck with me, and that's what I try to do till this day.
I - That's beautiful. That's what it means to be a Christian.
N - That's right.
I - That's really what it is. That's what it's all about. Well Mrs.Howard, I thank you for your time and if you think of anythinge lse you feel like you want to tell me, just call me and I'll be more than happy to bring the recorder back over here and listen to you. Thank you very much.
N - Well, thank you for wanting to hear what I had to say.
Questions
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