Church Hill - Thelma F. Jones
Virginia Black History Archives
Church Hill Oral History Project
Transcript of interview with Mrs. Thelma Francis Jones. Interview was conducted November 20, 1982 by Akida T. Mensah.
We are now interviewing Mrs. Thelma Francis Jones, wife of Welton Jones. Mrs. Jones who has been the other part or the better half of this relationship has agreed to share her memories, of that successful journey, from 1945 in a small business, to now in a business that maintains itself.
I - Mrs. Jones where were you born.
N - Charles City, county Virginia.
I - You were born in Charles City county. When were you born.
N - On December the 25th, 1923.
I - On Christmas day.
N - Yes.
I - That's make you an angel, I'm sure.
N - Thank you.
I - And who were your parents.
N - My parents were, Henry Allen Bowman and Latuchia Bowman.
I - What, kind of work did your parents do.
N - My father was a laborer, my mother was a housewife.
I - And did you come from a large family.
N - Yes, I did.
I - How many.
N - My parents were the mother and father of five daughters, and five sons.
I - So there were twelve in your family, ten children and your parents, that is a large family, and where were you in that position in that family.
N - I'm the fifth child.
I - You're the fifth child, so you were right in the middle, just about. What was that like, growing up in a large family.
N - We were happy, very poor, but very happy too. Because we always had each other to play with, got along together.
I - So you're saying you were a close family.
N - Yes.
I - This was a rural setting I take it, Charles City County, did your family do any farming at all .
N - Well, only for the family.
I - What did your brothers and sisters do, particularly the ones that were older, what kinds of things did they do.
N -Well, it was in an early age, they cut pulp wood, this was just about the only thing to be done during those days.
I - So they cut pulp wood and
N - Work on the farm, on the big farm.
I - Did they have anything to do with any transportation of the wood, like did they drive trucks and so on.
N - No.
I - What school did you attend.
N - Little Elan
I - Little Elan public school, and how far in school did you go.
N - Well after the seventh grade I went off to work
I - Went off to work. And what kind of work were you doing.
N - Housework.
I - Housework, and this is working for families.
N - Yes, private families
I - What kinds of things did you learn about the work, by doing this, did it teach you any particular thing. About people, or how to conduct yourself or you know.
N - Well it did teach me, I was taught how to conduct myself, naturally, It was little bit different from what was going on at home, so far as cooking and cleaning and things like that. I learned a little bit of cooking.
I - Did you know Mr. Jones in growing up.
N - Well, I would say I knew him since I was about fifteen
I - And was it love at first sight, or was it the kind situation that took awhile for you to find him interesting.
N - Well it took a little while to find him interesting, but then too, I must say that I knew him, all along, but not to have conversation, because the neighborhood I grew up in wasn't too far from the neighborhood he grew up in, so had seen him around.
I - How did he look to you, how did, he, did he impress you, how did he impress you let me put it that way, what was it about him that impressed you.
N - I liked his looks.
I - Liked his looks.
N - Yeah.
I - And you said you knew him around the age of fifteen, how long after that was it before you decided, the two of you decided to get married.
N - Oh, it was about three years after that.
I - And what were your plans, what were your goals in life, you are marring a man, and usually a woman and a man have certain ideas, dreams, that they want to do accomplish in life, what were you thinking when you said I'm going to take this man for my husband.
N - I believe I had in mind, that what ever, what ever it was that he wanted to do, I would've just helped him to do, the best I could.
I - You saw yourself, and I think this is sort of traditionally what a woman was expected to do, is to pick he man, and then help him or follow him into life, whatever came.
N - Right.
I - And after marring and having some kids, you then came to Richmond, or did you come to Richmond and then have kids.
N - Well, no we moved, well after we married we moved to Hampton, Virginia so my oldest child, which is Peggy, a girl, she was born in Hampton, we I lived there for a while, and then we moved back to Charles City county, and my husbanc was inducted into the service, and after he had been in there service for awhile then we had a son of course I had to visit him and when I came back we had a son.
I - Did you travel with him. When he was stationed down there.
N - Not really, now he, I went to visit him, twice, and stayed only a short while with him, but to travel with him, no. I wasn't traveling with him for about a year.
I - So when he came out of service is that when you all decided to move to Richmond.
N - Yes.
I - And you came to Richmond, and he had mentioned earlier, that he opened a small service station, and that you pitched right in and helped. What was it about him or what ever that made you say, "Well, hey, I'm going to get right down and get greasy and grimmy with him and make this thing work, was he that powerful was he that persuasive, what was it.
N - Well he wasn't persuasive, we had these kids to take care of, and ourselves as well, so I , every little bit helps the situation, then I would, and even so now I would do the same thing.
I - So what I'm hearing is that not only, you know, in traditionally a woman says well ok, I'm doing to marry this man, and I'm going to stick with him through thick and thin, this is the way they wrote it in the book that it's suppose to be, but you went beyond that because you say it was, we had to live, we had these children, so you're saying I'm taking part of this responsibility to provide for this family, so you apparently saw marriage and life not just, my husband has to do thid, but I have to help him do it.
I -
N - This is the way that I feel about this.
I - OK. Alright, was this particularly a hard role for you to take you've got young children, your husband is scrambling and ambitious, want to go places, and you're pitching right in there, was this hard for you as a woman, how did other women see you in this sense.
N - I, well I, they never talk to me about how they saw me in this role, but really, it didn't even matter, I wanted to do what I could.
I - As time went on and you could see that he was really about what he was saying he was about, he was making it a success of his business, with your help what kind of feeling did this bring out, did you feel quite proud of him and of yourself, and that
N - Well, really I always felt proud of him and I, I still say that I just felt like I was doing what was expected of me.
I - You worked the service station and he had the trucks, and then you decided you going to buy this property and open a restaurant, and now you're in the restaurant and he's off in the morning driving a truck and you're in the restaurant, doing whatever you do in the restaurant, what was that like, how did you feel about that, you're not working side by side, necessarily now,
N - Well it was pretty rough sometimes but we managed it somehow, it wasn't too hard.
I - You're a woman now and you're running a restaurant, and Mr. Jones said earlier that sometimes you had people come in and just want to take over your business. You know, didn't this frighten you.
N - Not really, because I , I felt that I was the one that has to live here and live there and be there with the business, and they wanted to take over for them but it didn't bother me because I knew what I could get them out of there, if not I could call and get help to get help to get them out.
I - So now you, what you're saying that this was more than just a business, this was your home, this was your, your place, your space you, you know it wasn't something that you were going to fall over and say you can have it.
N - No, not like that, not so easy.
I - Right. The business began to grow, and you begin to employ people to help in the business, and I suppose you had to train some of them, not all of them.
N - Yes.
I - The way that you would like for the business to be run and the way that would want customers handled and so on, was that difficult, or what.
N - Well it was a little difficult, some of them didn't catch on so easy, but most of them did.
I - Do you think the training that you got, or the experiences that you had in working out in service helped you in making this business successful and helping these people, you know, adjust the way you wanted your business run.
N - I think so. I definently think so.
I - So if I could make a comment, it seems that even though a person start from a very humble beginning, a large family, and not a lot of formal education and working in service, as they call it, that you can still make something of yourself, you can, if you have the desire, and the will to want to make something of yourself you can.
N - You can.
I - And if you were in the position today, a young woman came to you and said, I saw a man the other day that I would love to marry and but I don't know because of the way things are, that a woman is suppose to be equal to the man and she can do what she want to do and blah, blah, blah. How I should act towards him I mean, you know, whether I should do everything he tells me to do or whether I should go and try to get me a job somewhere, else and let him go his way. What advise do you think you would give this young person.
N - Well, I could say that she would have to be lady like and that we certainly be up to the man, to ask if she wants to marry him, I don't think she should just go over and take him, just like that.
I - Well that's not exactly what I was meaning. What I was saying assuming that he likes her, and they want to get married, but she has some doubts, because she is not sure, because, you know, roles have changed somewhat, for women and women are suppose to be freer and whatever would you advise her, to take the same routes you did as far as sticking with him and working with him and not being afraid to cahllenges that he takes on or would you say now I think now you would be better off, you get a job somewhere else, you know
N - Well I don't have any regrets about what I've done, so I'd say she should going
I - We talked about your education, we talked about your family, and talked about your work experience, and your marriage, did you have any heroes, or people that you looked up to growing up.
N - Well one of the ladies had a husband and they had a big car, and they had a restaurant, and I always thought that I would like to be like that lady.
I -Side from the restaurant and the car, what was the lady like, was she hard working or very friendly or was it something about her as a person, that made you want to go that route.
N - Well she was working lady. Yeah. She was a working lady. I can't say she was a hard working lady, because I really don't know, that but I do know she was working.
I - What about older brothers, or your mother or your father, what kinds influences did they have on you, how did you see them. In relationship to yourself were, do you think their qualities that you have now, you might have picked up from them.
N - I think some of the qualities, I must have picked up from my families.
I - Is it any specific one that you want to name or something that you just don't put your hand on, you just.
N - It's something that I just can't put my hand on but I'm very sure I picked up something.
I - What about teachers, were there any particular teacher that impressed you, as a good teacher, or person to try to be like.
N - No. I can't think of any.
I - What about church, did you at a young age.
N - Yes, I attended church.
I - What, is that church still around
N -Y es, and I do attend there occasionally.
I - And the name of it.
N - Cedar Grove Baptist Church.
I - Cedar Grove Baptist Church. Do you remember the pastor when you were young who he was.
N - Yes. When I first started going to church, it was a Reverend Sameul Massey. And the next one was Rev. Harris.
I - And what kind of men were they, were they strong men, were they mild men, stern men or how.
N - I think they were mild.
I - What part do you think this religous exposure played in your life
N - I have a strong belief in God, I don't attend Church, as near as much as I would like to but I have a strong belief in God.
I - Do you attribute your success, your being here to his benevolence or his care, or just how do you see that.
N - I feel that, I feel that wherever I am God is.
I - So you feel that God is everywhere, is apart of your life, no matter what. Religion being important in your life and I am not just talking about going to church, but I'm taling about the way you live your life, do you think it has the same significance, say for a twenty year old, starting out today, as it did for you, when you started out and as it does for you now.
N - I think so.
I - You've seen a lot of people come and go, and children grow up and families break up and all kinds of, you know, in dealing with your customers, is there anything that you think if we bought back today would help the situation that we are in today, we have drugs, we have crime, we have disrespect, we have all these things, is there any particular thing or somethings that you think we lack. Which causes our problems today.
N - I think some of our problems are caused because so much of its being exposed on T.V. and what not, but I think it gives the youngsters ideas on how they can do things and get away with them.
I - So you think if we had less exposure, less, really it teaches, what it's doing is teaching people different lifestyles, and you're saying if we had less of that on T.V. and maybe more of some positive things to do, that maybe our kids would be better.
N - I believe so.
I - What about your relationship with the neighbors, did you find people being jealous of you or here you've got apparently a very strong man, a man who's outward, who's getting it, or your business is growing, all of this, how did people look at you, did they give you the impression that they were jealous of you, or.
N - Well they didn't give me the impression that they were jealous, but I could feel some jealousy.
I - How did you handle that.
N - I ignored it.
I - You ignored it.
N - I wouldn't let them get next to me, you know to get me down with it, but yeah I feel that there was alot of jealousy.
I - How did that niake you feel, did it make you feel bitter, or did it make you just toughen up and say I'm going to handle this.
N - It, I'm sure it made me toughen up a little bit.
I - It seems as your husband mentioned earlier, that you both are well liked and you know from what I can see, you both are very kind people and don't mind helping people and being tolerant of people even in very extreme situations sometimes, what do you attribute that to, is that because I'm toughen up or is that because you really care about people and I think because I'm toughen up a bit too but I really do care about people.
I - There were ocaasions that the high schools would have banquets and your restaurant and families, after church come in and have dinner, and whatever and it seemed that people really thought that they were going somewhere, when they went to Kitty's Grill, why was that.
N - I think it was because there wasn't too many places on the hill at that time for people to go to, and I think we had more seating capacity than anyone else did at that time, so I think that play with big part in their coming there.
I - But on the other hand they could have gone to Broad Street Station was bigger thatti Kitty's Grill, why do you think they came to Kitty's Grill, was it because the way you treated them or try to treat them.
N - I think it was becaue of the way they were treated, and then too there is also there were other people, it was people, it people meeting people, you know, you get to meet new people in there, I think all that played a part with it.
I - I'm sure you've found yourself in competition, there were other restaurants and as time passed on more, grew up around the neighborhood, what was that like trying to, and I'm sure you had to at times come in contact with the owners of the other restaurants or something, what was that like was that sort of sniping at each other, or did you get along pretty well with the orbers.
N - I don't think it was sniping at each other at all, because like coming in contact with them we all got to be very good friends those that we came in contact with. So it was a friendly situation.
I - Do you think and it hasn't happened to my knowledge at least in Virginia that your knowledge of the other restaurant owner and so on that they could put together a group that could operate a place like say Richfood, you know suppling the stores as well as, you know, selling you think that, having knowledge of the people that you've come in contact with over the years, not nessarily naming anybody specifically, but over a thirty year period you must have met a lot of people who were in the business and out of the business, is there any pattern that gives you the indication that maybe we might be at a point where we are ready to go bigger as a group of people.
N - No, it never occured to me that we might get into something bigger.
I - Now when I when you say we are you just talking about you and your husband or
N - Yes, my husband and I.
I - I think my question is, you know, of course, I am talking about you too but if you had to say the people you've met over the years and you could pick ten of them, who have been in business. Do you think they have the necessary qualifications and experiences to be able to run such a place. If they had to or had a desire to.
N - Yes, at a time I think so, because you see so many of them had gone out of business, do you think they have the necessary qualifications and experiences to be able to run the place. If they had to or had a desire to. Yes, at a time I think so, because you see so many of them had gone out of business, so many of them had quit, some years ago had gone out of business.
I - Why do you think that hasn't happened is it any particular reason do you feel that people just didn't want to take that kind of risk, why do you think that there isn't a say for example a black Richfood, some place. In Richmond, of Virginia.
N - Well they probably didn't want to take that risk.
I - But then people have taken risks, your husband, in the construction business restaurant, business, there were some others who got into the business, service station business, cab business, and so on, which seem pretty big operations, but they all indicated that they were individual operations, this is my little kingdom, and other people who come to America, at some point say we gonna, this is our operation, I was just wondering why that hasn't happened with us, why haven't we gotten to the point that sya this is ours and you know we had made ours and now we gonna pool these resources is there any particualr reason that you can give for that.
N - I just can't think of anything.
I - Do you think there might come a time that more people will begin to think that it may be necessary for us to do that to continue you know our progress as a people.
N - I think that as time comes around, I believe that will happen. That people will learn to pull together.
I - I ask that question because you talked about a family and a large family and a close family and I might be simpling it but it appears to me that neighbors or a larger families and that the same principle that works in a family works in a neighborhood and in a state and in a country, and in a nation on a larger scale, and if we could get more of our people to see them selves as part of a large family in the neighborhood, I think they would begin to have more respect for themselves for people around them and begin to have more respect for themselves for people around them and begin to do more things together, in a family you have, your friction, and you conflicts, but you have that bound that name is common, same name, you have a you live in a house or on a farm and that gives you similar kinds of experiences and so on and I'm saying the same thing is true of a neighborhood, you know, Church Hill the same name, and you, alot of people are related in one way or another, and all just the fact that you live across the street from somebody, I think if we pushed that idea, we would come closer to being like a family throughtout Richmond, just saying I'm from Richmond, so are you that there should be something that makes us feel good about ourselves, and about each other, and again I might be over simplifying. [End of Transcript.]
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