Church Hill - Kelly
Virginia Black History Archives
Church Hill Oral History Project
This is an oral history interview with Mrs. Ellen Kelly who lives at 4708 Monument Avenue in Richmond. She is being interviewed by John Bushey.
I = Interviewer
N = Narrator
I: Mrs. Kelly, let's begin with a little information about yourself, could you tell us where you lived on Church Hill and when you lived there; the period of time you were on Church Hill?
N: Well, I lived there all my life. I was born on 25th Street at 316, and moved out to 3516 E. Broad Street and that was right in front of Chimborazo Park where the mounds of flowers have been so much admired. And as children we played in the park and they used to say it was our front yard and our playground because we were a huge family and everybody used to say my father was lucky. He would say, "Well, I got the city to furnish a playground for my children." And we lived there and had many influential families living in the neighborhood there and we were all just like one big family. We went down to, at school we started the school and went to St. Patrick School at 26th and Grace Street and of course we went to church there but all our neighbors each had their own selection of church and as children, we would walk down the street on Sunday and some would come out of this house and by the time we got down to 25th Street we had quite a collection, then we would start dropping off going to the various houses, churches and schools. And it was just a grand big community.
I: Could you tell me the name of your mother and father and brothers and sisters.
N: My mother, her maiden name was Margaret Dawson and she married my father who was Phil J. Bagley and then they in turn had 10 children and one was dead as a child. But then there were six girls, Mary Rose Lee, Marguerite, Mary, Regina Mary, Ellen Mary, Ann Mary, Kathleen Mary, three brothers, Bill Joseph,Jr., Anthony, and John Bagley. We all lived there right on the corner and of course were remembered not as individuals, but as one of the Bagley children. There were many lovely people around in the section there. Like I said, we were more or less -- the family next door to us which was the Sullivan family and those children called my mother, Momma Bagley and we were just like one community that, doing for one another and most interested in one another.
I: Is the oldest child a boy or a girl?
N: The oldest was a boy and the youngest was a boy. And the oldest is the one that was deceased.
I: What year was the oldest born, do you recall?
N: No, I don't remember the year cause I think I was about 2 months old when he passed away which was a terrific blow to my family. I don't think my parents ever got over it, but we were very fortunate, the rest of us lived until more recent years. We have lost quite a few.
I: Roughly, what were the years that your family, going back in date, what were the years and times that your family lived on Church Hill growing up?
N: Well, the last four were born, well all of us were born on Church Hill and last four were born, two of them were born in this house as it is now, and one of them was born in the house that my father moved into on the next block.
I: Do you know the Year?
N: No, I said I'm not familiar, I just didn't keep those in mind so much. But we were all there, the huge crowd of us.
I: The family life in those days must have been very, very interesting and perhaps a little different from today. Can you recall some of the aspects of family life...
N: Well, I think they enjoyed the small the minor things that children now days would think was ridiculous. Well my father had a farm down on Darbytown Road and the C & O train goes through there and a big deal for us was that he would take us all down there and I guess we looked like a bunch of geese and we got out eating maybe in a wagon or maybe a horse and buggy and we had pony and cart and we'd ride down there and we were allowed to bring friends and spend the day and of course that was a big deal, riding the horses and anything you might find fun on the farm doing. We just enjoyed that and of course all those, we were raised from the products from the farm and just found that with playing in the park and playing with each other and those kinds of things were big deals--you go into Forest Hill park on a summer night. But there was no fear of anything then and children didn't have to be frightened. We played in the park and met all, and we had a playground there that was a lot of fun for the local children. And the various churches would have lawn parties in the park, we had music in the park and of course, they were exciting things you know.
I: Were they Sunday afternoon concerts or were...
N: Well, they were more or less at night. And they would have some girl that would sing with the band. It was just everything was calm and peaceful and on one summer night where we would be out on the porch and you would see people coming from the streets that went back to Marshall and Clay and all, without any air- conditioning or any means of cooling the house they would come with blankets and pillows and go over to the park, very quietly and very orderly and sometimes in the wee hours of the night you would hear just a little voice, if you would happen to be out. Cause my mother and them would tell us, and then towards morning they would pick up the little beds and go back to wherever they were and no fear of anything. Just no fear of anything, the park was crowded with people and it was really wonderful living in those days.
I: And how would people get to the park, would they walk, would they take the trolley, or would they.....
N: Well you see, right there in the small area that, if you called it a small area of Church Hill there is Jefferson Park, Liberty Hill Park and Chimbarazo. So they pretty much took care of the various locations. They could just walk out to the park and children came over, and Sunday afternoon the park was very, very crowded and so really it was to me just was living, not existing like we do now days.
I: Is that, was the park service the focal point of the neighborhood where people got to see each other or would they see each other sitting on the porches or would people get to know each other?
N: Well, as soon as dinner was over in the afternoon, they would go out to the porch. And as children, we were not allowed to go out front until we were dressed to go out front. Which is quite different from the way it is now. But as we would go down Broad Street, going to school or to church always there were people sitting on the porch who would know you, and we got the warning from home that you must be a lady or else a little bird along the way would tell me. We wondered who the little bird was. That's the way it was, it was just the little, the little things were not on a big scale like they are now, but little amusement for planned for it. So we just loved that way of living.
I: If we could go back again to the farm and your father going down there as your means of farm and recreation, did your father go to the farm daily to work?
N: No, he never worked the farm, he only went down. We had a German family living on it, and I think they shared the crops with possibly some salary or the other. And it was a good size farm, and the children now days have to have English saddles and all of that, but when we got down there we just took the horse to the watering trough so we could get up on him, we rode bare backed--it was just an outlet to run and play we were all allowed to bring a friend, and make a nice crowd. I can remember daddy used to make homemade ice cream for his family and the kids used to, even to this day different ones used to say, how about we used to go to the farm we used to have so much fun. My two daughters always say, "Why did ya'll ever get rid of that farm," cause they would have liked to have had it too. Then we had the annual Sunday School picnic and each of the churches would have certain days that they would go to Buckroe Beach and that crowd made it from Broaddus Memorial would come back and tell us, "Oh, it's so wonderful down there, everything is just beautiful, this, that, and the other. But we couldn't wait until St. Patrick's Day to go down there and they didn't have a new nail in the place hardly, but to us it was great. It was a family place, everybody brought their lunch and then they, cross across the water, you know where the Buckroe Beach goes into the Chesapeake Bay and then we gradually moved from going over to Buckroe Beach to the Chamberlain Hotel which is at Old Point Comfort. That is a beautiful part of Virginia. Down there in Tidewater.
I: Could you tell us a little bit more about your father and where did he work and what are you recollections...
N: He ran, the model steam laundry on 25th Street between Broad and Marshall. And he was in business there.
I: Do you ever recall either you or your family or your brothers or sisters every going out there to help work and to ...
N: With the farm?
I: No, with the laundry?
N: Oh, I went there from school as a bookkeeper, one of the bookkeepers. We employed quite a few and it was John Macky, he was a cripple boy, he lived on the block on 23rd Street, right cross from where you are speaking about the Macky family lived there. And of course by being people coming into the laundry, we had about 20 trucks out on the street then and the drivers and you knew the location so well, by then, and it seems to me that it was just continuous, seeing one another, enjoying one's company, standing on the corner talking, and going to church and meeting outside and it was just a family way of living.
I: One of the things I am curious about is the whole sense of responsibility in the family and family duties and so on and do you see the change over the years of duties that are expected in the family in those days compared to what you think exist today or...
N: Well, there are things that its hard for coming along in my time we would never leave living at home as long as you were single of course when you are married even then half of them stayed at home. Now days the trend is that they go out and get apartments and for why, that I am not too sure of course we were so happy and so satisfied with our parents, and according as the years improved, why just such things as used to be that the piano was the only music you had and then we got into the wind up victrolas and as they came in we had more modern ways of music. It looks like its so much now the children don't seem to enjoy the smaller things that were so prevalent in out day. We enjoyed and we enjoyed just being the big family around at nights, laughing and talking and always we could, I heard my mother say many times,"I looked around the table twice before I saw a face that did belong to me." We were permitted to bring somebody in all the time, and then going to the movies that was wonderful. The school on Friday night, we'd have a movie down there about the end dens or something but we didn't care what it was cause we'd go.
I: Do you remember how much it cost to go to the movies in those days?
N: We must have paid about a quarter or something. But this was at school, I don't know about, I kind of really lost track of what it would be to the public. But then suddenly everything changed in the movies and then of course in your day, I suppose you can remember, some sudden changes in some things, for instance the silent movie, now that possibly was ahead of you but you could enjoy the movie and now if you would do that, send a child to that, they'd think, what's this. But we could fancy it out, maybe we were smarter, but we wanted to know what it was all about, I guess.
I: It seems like one of the characteristics of the earlier day was that people did learn and know how to appreciate the smaller things.
N: And on Sunday afternoons, we always had some of the family they would go out walking and come in and I suppose the big deal was we had the electric ice cream freezer and it would always serve ice cream and those kinds of things and children remembered coming out there and I think I said, I don't want to sound like it was too plentiful but we were such a big family that you would always have something to share with the others.
I: You remember when the freezer came, was that the first modern electrical appliance that you had in your house?
N: No, because I don't remember too much ahead of that.
I: Did you always have electricity and electric lights.
N: Oh yes, yes, yes I can't remember anything else. It not quite going back that far. We always had it, then when...
I: Did you have big fans and those things to cool the house?
N: We had oscillating fans and you would almost faint by the time it got back to you, but it was in the dining room, it would oscillate around. Other than that you sometimes wonder if we weren't healthy about just raising the windows and the night air coming in, we were lucky that it was always a breeze, cause you see the river is not far from us, underneath the park, and the expression was, you could always find a breeze on Chimbarazo Park and then over on Liberty Hill Park the families over there, they enjoyed it because it was cooler out there too. It was just a quieter, calmer way of living I guess maybe. We had our pony and cart that we could, as we got older drove the pony, we could go and visit the different ones around. I remember the Broad Street hill you know, and of course when the automobile came in, you wondered if your car was going to make it up that hill, but throw it into second and it would chug, chug, chug, a little bit and go on. As children we lived out there...36th and Broad but then all during the Lenting Season we went around to Monte Maria Convent which is right there at the end of 23rd and Grace Street, and we would go around there to early morning mass...everybody you would see just going back and forth and you'd see lots of people, they went thru the park because down beneath the park there was tobacco row, they used to call it. And there were so many people employed in there, that was the main means of support, working in those tobacco factories.
I: Was there transportation into the city, the downtown part of Richmond, was there the trolley car system?
N: Oh yea, we had electric cars. Now see all of this, I came after all of this they were when I came along. We had a street car that ran out Broad Street and changed right at the park, changed and went back.
I: Changed, you mean turned around?
N: No it didn't turn, they would just turn the trolley and the conductor would take the money thing, and go up, he could run it from either end, then I should say. We had school tickets, see we lived eleven blocks from school. But we had school tickets and in bad weather we rode, but other than that we, it was a group of children, we were so glad to go along in the crowd laughing and talking. And then they had Bellevue School which was a public school but Bellevue School was built on the old grounds where, I'm sure you've heard about that, that was Elizabeth VanLews home. Now that was ahead of me too. I remember them telling about it and that was a crime that they ever demolished that building because that was rich in history you know.
I: Do you remember, talking about building, some of the buildings that were significant buildings are they still there?
N: Yes, I think they are still there. There was one at 28th and Franklin and they, you may see it sometimes it had like a little square arrangement on the top, you wouldn't call it an apartment or anything. Now the story runs, you don't know how true these things are, that was where they watched, you know the end of the War Between The States from up there. Now that would be an extremely, it's right on the corner of 28th and Franklin.
I: Is it still there?
N: Yes, it's still there. I had an aunt, that lived in the 2600 block. Now they had done those homes over, but they are still the original homes.
I: Can I go back again and talk a bit more about the transportation. In our conversation before we started taping, you talked about the flower garden and the flower circle in front of your house. Could you tell us a little bit about that and the relationship of that to the park and the trolley system, did they go up that far...
N: That was in front of our house which was 36th and Broad but actually the street car was called Broad Street Car, and it only came out Broad Street to about the 3300 block, so we would walk, our block was 36th and there was no break into it, the next street down was 34th and then this street car stopped between 34th and 33rd which was right there, we had the weather bureau on the park over there in those days. And it stopped along through there, but it did not come up to where the flower bed was but the flower bed was right in front of our house and it was the city owned project and it was kept up by the park and the park was kept beautifully. They constantly had workmen over there working on the park.
I: And was this paid for by the city or was this U.S. National Park service?
N: No, it was the city owned property and I think it still is.
I: Do you recall the services that the city provided? Were there increased services or more or less services that today like the police department and the street....
N: We had a regular fire department and the police, knowing some of the neighbors and some of them boys would turn out to be policemen. Sometimes on real cold nights, they would walk their beat, and on the corner from us was the police box and they used to have what they call, I think my expression is right, "pull the box," ...in other words they had to report like, but they would say pull the box. And if it was a real bitter cold night, my father would hide a little something out under the bushes to help along. But I can remember from upstairs windows seeing them go about like every hour or so go out and pull the box.
I: And this was their way of reporting in.
N: And as kids we knew the policeman from that. And there were some of them were people that lived not around here. But we had all the same facilities they had.
I: How about did you have the same taxes?
N: Well, that I don't know because that was the one thing I didn't have to worry about, but that's what changed it for me, I have to worry about it now. I don't know how the taxes ran.
I: Talking about the police, do you recall crime. Were people worried about break-ins, were people worried about locking up their houses in those days?
N: No, I think it was the least of our concern was about anybody breaking in. If the night was quite warm, getting back to the summer time, the front of our house always caught the breeze because it was facing the park and it was so open, but the back would be a little warm. But as kids we'd go down, take a pillow, lay inside the front door, maybe latch your screen but that would be all. You could sit out on the porch until all hours, you had no worry and like I said people slept in the park when it was real severe nights. I don't mean there were wall to wall people out there but many people would come over and everything seemed to be just...course we had no means then like the television, of hearing of crime and I suppose there had always been some crime, but it wasn't as well known as it is today. And we had no fear, we would walk, it would be good and dark, if they had church services at night, we'd walk down Broad Street, like I said we never feared a thing. I know I can't ever remember as a younger ever hearing of somebody breaking in. It could so happen we just didn't have the means of hearing about it. But I don't think there was. We certainly had no fear of it.
I: Some of the aspects of the so called "good old days"....I am jumping around a little bit, but I am trying to pick up on some of things you were talking about. You mentioned the street again. Do you recall many cobblestone streets in those days?
N: Well, I can remember this, that in front of our house there was a, especially Christmas, there was an old trick you probably read about, you probably don't know it, the boys used to go around and steal barrels and things and have a barn fire. And the idea was they were a man when they could stay out all Christmas Eve night and watch the barn fire. They loved that idea. But there was a, they were friends of our family, when Curley, when they paved Broad Street. And I can remember them paving it. It was cobblestone before that. But then they put this black surface out there.
I: Do you have any recollection...was that before WWI or do you remember when that was?
N: Oh sure, yes, it was way back. So that really has been paved for many a day the concern was a Curley, they came here from PA and we knew them too, and they would pave the street. I remember on one occasion, I was standing with my father watching them pour that hot tar and that fascinated me and I also remember when Lindbergh came around and every house over there decorated with flags and what have you cause Lindbergh was going down to the airport. It was the only means of getting to the airport was down the government road. Then we overlooked at the foot of Chimbarazo Park there was a spring there that too was a source of amusement. In the section of Fulton that was down there lovely old families lived all around there and they took pride in their homes. And there really was, you might say I'm all for the good old days. But I do know that living was certainly, well what I could see, of course I am not downing our period of time now but it was kind of more enjoyable because it was on a more calm and peaceful base, more home living. And you went up to, when they first started putting movie houses on Broad Street and you went up there. You daren't go up there unless you looked your very best. So it gradually worked into it, one movie and then we got neighborhood movies.
I: Where do you recall the first movie theater up there?
N: I don't remember that they were there, but I was too young to be allowed to go up there.
I: Going back a bit about the streets and all. Do you recall the streets as having big trees as some of the streets do now. Were they planting trees?
N: Around the park there was a circle of trees because I can remember we used to go and play in the shade of the tree on hot summer days. Then in winter our chief recreation, we used to sleigh ride down the hill. My father had down at the stables or where ever the laundry truck and equipment was kept it was some old sleigh, I don't know who it ever belong to but he would hitch up a horse and come in and take turn riding us around the park in the snow. It's just too bad that the children now days don't know about some of those things.
I: That must have been very interesting. It just occurred to me that all the delivery and pick-up and everything had to be with horse and wagon.
N: Well, now our laundry had an automobile truck. But it was mostly horse and wagon and there was a family store on the 27th and Broad and it was run by a lovely family. And of course we never thought bread and butter came anywhere else. And all you had to do, the service that you got, the lady down there in the office she'd call and get your order and you'd give her your order and that was sent out and brought in and put right on the kitchen. And now days hauling, and that's when I think about it.
I: Did most people call? So there were telephones?
N: Oh yes, we had telephones.
I: Did most people do their shopping that way or did they go to the market or where did they go?
N: You see there was a, it's now known as the Farmer's Market and I believe in those days they used to say down 17th Street. But that's where the farm wagons used to come up from the country and they go down there and those farmers would sleep in their wagons to sell their groceries, vegetables and things. But they would go there early to get certain places. But we pretty much dealt with this family grocery store and occasionally I can remember my father would just run us down there and get extra things. Course things at our house had to come in large quantities although from the farm we got all the milk and butter and all that kind of stuff.
I: Were there many grocery stores?
N: Yes, there was another family, that was on 27th and Broad, there was another one, Bowens ran a store on 29th and Broad and one of the Bowen girls was my sister-in-law, she was Bill's wife and that was one. There was another [Transcript ends].
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Last update 9/96 (rb)