Church Hill - Sweat

Virginia Black History Archives

Church Hill Oral History Project

Transcript of interview with Mr. John Sweat, conducted May 7, 1982 by Akida T. Mensah.

Teaching In Church Hill. This is an interview with Mr. John Sweat, retired teacher from the Richmond Public Schools. The interview was conducted in the home of Mr. Sweat at 2700 Barton Avenue. Mr. Sweat is sharing remembrances of his 30 something years at George Mason Elementary School located in Church Hill, and some of the things that he feels made for a wholesome community. Mr. Sweat worked both in the schools and in the community with students and parents; both in day school and in night school. He firmly believes that morals play a great part in the wholesome community and that a close association between home and school and the church is essential.

Mensah: Uh, were you born in Richmond?

Sweat: I was born in Norfolk, Virginia.

Mensah: Born in Norfolk, Virginia? Uh, when where you born sir?

Sweat: 1911 in August.

Mensah: August?

Sweat: 14th.

Mensah: August the 14th, 1911. And when was it that you came to Richmond?

Sweat: I came to Richmond 1929 to attend school.

Mensah: You attended Virginia Union University? Uh, and at the outset were you intending to be a teacher? Was that you ambition?

Sweat: At first my ambition was to go into medicine. But I came through the school during depression. It was hard to get money to go to school in those days. So I decided to teach.

Mensah: So you decided to go into the profession of teaching. And what was the ... where did you start your teaching?

Sweat: I taught for two years in the western part of the State of Virginia, ne year at Lousia, then I came to Richmond. 1936 I started at George Mason.

Mensah: What was life generally like around that time? You mentioned the depression. Uh, was it still pretty rough in '36?

Sweat: In many instances, rough time was many people here. Factory worker because most of the time they were laid off. That's one reason why we started the lunch program to make sure the children had.. had their food. And because, lack of food and all. I recall one instance in which a mother came to me and asked me about getting a free lunch for her children. And duh, in a couple of months she came back to me and said, "Mr. Sweat, I do not need free lunch any longer, I'm able to take..to feed my own children because I

Mensah: You mentioned free lunch ... did a ... we..we have, I was told you would call free lunch programs today. How..how would the first program that you describe differ?

Sweat: We had to raise our own funds to start ou lunch program. Once it was started to feed the children we fee the children ourselves. Then we would get the pay for the meals, those who could pay for them. That's how we were able to continue.

Mensah: And what..what did this lunch program consist of?

Sweat: Well, we had hot rolls, cornbread, bowls of soups, pastries, milk.

Mensah: We uh, like today you have the elaborate cafeteria systems and so on, I wouldn't expect that you did have (interuption)

Sweat: We didn't have that sss ....

Mensah: Conviences at that time .....

Sweat: They would order the lunches, send them through the office and then they were made up, sent to the rooms on the trays.

Mensah: How..how were the children and they..and their parents as far as there responsiveness to education?

Sweat: I had very good relationship with parents. I find.. found that most of 'em wanted the children to get into the schools. They studied hard, they supported me in teaching.

Mensah: Much of uh, your teaching, uh, you mentioned the depression and the, well not very long after the depression you uh, were into the second World War, and you being a male teacher uh..uh, I would imagine a lot of young men looked up to you or at least found you as a role model of a sort.

Sweat: I may answer that question by saying, I go downtown quite often. Every time I go downtown I'd run across some old students. And some of them I'd forgotten. Then they'd come to me and say, "Are you Mr. Sweat?" I said, "Yeah." Say, "You taught me at George Mason and I'll never forget you. You made me want to go to school." I have one student who is an accountant now. He told me that he was an accountant today because I made him get his mathematics.

Mensah: Well, that's very good. Uh, would you mind sharing the name of that student?

Sweat: His name is Johnson - Ivan Johnson.

Mensah: And duh, he attributes your encouraging him in math to his career?

Sweat: Yes sir.

Mensah: Very good. Uh, the school uh, played a, I suppose a very central part in the lives of many kids who didn't have all of the entertainment uh, the versified occurences as we have today. So I would imagine school played a large part in the lives of many of these kids, particularly since the uh, you're saying that the times were tough and so on. What kinds of programs, recreational and other wise, that the school offered?

Sweat: We had physical ed. programs, skating parties, we had movies, men with screens and old movies would come by and charge the kids 5cts to see those movies. Afternoon.. after school we take in movie parties for the children. It was 5cts than.

Mensah: Right. That was Mr. Crawford. Was it uh, at one time uh ...

Sweat: At one time it was. There were two, three people who came for those.

Mensah: Right. And you mentioned the skating parties. What..what were they like?

Sweat: We use to have four or five hundred kids skating in a circle to music on the playground. Uh, I use to skate with them. I could skate.

Mensah: So this skating program, though it was out of doors, it was pretty much like the.. a skating rink system ...

Sweat: Skating ...

Mensah: Today? Right. Uh, and you mentioned that you would skate with them uh, that sort of teacher-pupil participation. Uh, was that a very prevelent thing? Uh, during the... your... your tenure at school? That the teacher sort of participated ......

Sweat: Only... only three teachers that I know of, participated in that program, Harry Jones, Mrs. Carter, and myself. Mrs. Carter brokd her arm so didn't skate as much.

Mensah: Uh, huh, uh, huh. But uh, did..from your point of view, did you find this uh, something that you enjoyed doing? Uh.

Sweat: Tremondously.

Mensah: I would think that duh, particularly uh being a male and..and getting out with the kids, a professional getting out and.. and sort of having fun with kids would sort of inspire them to sort of wholesome kinds of recreation.

Sweat: Not only that, but we had added volleyball competition between classes. I played volleyball a lot.

Mensah: I can remember you playing and duh, I also remember Mr. Bright... Joseph T. Bright.

Sweat: Mr. Bright.

Mensah: Playing uh, occassionally. And I think those kinds of things are things that are..are things that you don't see a great deal of today, that sort of close knit duh, participation of faculty and students. Urn, in mentioning the war and a lot of fathers going off uh, to war and duh, a lot of mothers were beginning to work I suppose in the factories and so on. How did that effect duh, the school program or did it have any great effect on the school program?

Sweat: As such.

Mensah: Yes sir.

Sweat: It did have an effect because it gave us a problem of undernourished students. We had to attack that problem which we did and duh, children would often stay out of school because they didn't have what they thought they should have had such as clothes. And my wife spent time getting uh, clothes together for many students. Had to think about anytime you got clothes for students that wore them was

Mensah: But do ... you you are saying that even to the extent of involving yourself or your family boing involved and supplying clothes for kids, all this in the way of trying to encourage..them to stay in school and make something of themselves ....

Sweat: Encourage.

Mensah: Urn, the 40's was a period uh, that many of our leaders of today would have probably been in the school, in elementary school. Uh, some of them, Senator Wilder, Mayor Marsh, the mayor's wife and Harris uh Diane Harris, and her sister, uh, these people coming through this school system uh, were there things in your mind that inspired them to seek excellence uh, to go as far as some of them have gone? Were they ....

Sweat: Good old fashioned.

Mensah: Particular, good old fashion?

Sweat: In my school career, I had definite periods of bible study. I use to read to them great characters, scriptures. Mayor Marsh's father was a minister and he was particularly interested in stories, bible stories. I had to spend extra time out of class reading the stories. I think that encouraged him.

Mensah: Was there a great emphasis placed on excellence in education in this period?

Sweat: Meant a great deal at George Mason, excellence because I think the results show for themselves who had reason to make it. We had many successful kids come through our school.

Mensah: So, following the war I would ... one would think that duh, things got better as far as uh, children uh, having more material things, and uh, parents being ... the family being a bit more stable, and the fathers coming back and maybe mothers not moving to go out of the house to work. Is at reflected in your experience uh, in the school?

Sweat: Yes, we did see improvements. We emphasized home ownership in Church Hill at that time. And like ... seems to pay off because many parents willing to work. Uh, I may add that uh, during that period of the 40's, many of our teachers went to Columbia to do their graduate work, and one.. one or two times we had as many as 10 or 15 from George Mason School to go to Columbia.

Mensah: So they they found.. you're saying that it was a pretty close knit and and forward looking group of people. Uh, and and what you just said uh, it seems that a lot of civic kinds of events or aspects of community life was incorporated in your teaching program. You mentioned the home ownership, stressing home ownership uh, uh, the food programs, the recreational kinds of programs, uh, people coming in from the outside with movie projectors and so on, and providing pictures at night as well as uh, duirng the school hours for the kids, it seems that the educational system at least at George Mason, incorporated many of the things that we see being handled by civic groups or uh, today. Uh..

Sweat: I may add that we had pretty strong P.T.A. over at George Mason quite a long time. And we had access to parents come out to put our ideas on the community.

Mensah: Uh, during your career uh, working with students and uh, parents, if you were to sum up what your feelings would be to..for successful community or wholesome community, what what stands out in your mind as making... being the makings of a successful community?

Sweat: Close knitted between home and school, and the church, because many times, once or twice a year I would meet with my class in some church over Church Hill where they were members. And I think by having a teacher meet with the class at the church meant a great deal.

Mensah: So, all in all uh, you would see the..a wholesome community would need the involvement of the parents with the schools as well as the churches. Is there anything that you would like to add? Such as you mentioned the churches, who were some of the uh, leaders in the Church Hill community during this time? People uh, that maybe stood out and who were supportive?

Sweat: Minister of Fourth Baptist Church, Rev. Taylor, Rev. Kent. I don't know if you recall David Temper or not.

Mensah: David Temper. Yeah.

Sweat: David temper worked at this church very closely. He worked with the parents and while on on that subject sometimes during the summer months I worked Virginia Mutual Life Insurance Company trying to do a program and trying to get parents interested in life insurance for their children. Especially. And I worked a couple of summers with duh, Virginia Mutual trying to instill in the parents who desired to save for the children.

Mensah: Uh, that's an interesting aspect. Uh, would you want to expand on that any, uh. You know going out and trying to encourage people, education is seemingly not only just for the children but the..your involving the parents as well or uh. Was this a common kind of thing happening in education throughout the city or was this something unique to you and George Mason?

Sweat: This was rather unique itself, I suppose because I was going to teach in that program. Mr. Bradshaw, Mr. Robinson, and one or two others in Virginia Mutual. Very supportive to me and that program.

Mensah: When you said Mr. Bradshaw, was this Booker T. Bradshaw?

Sweat: Booker T. Bradshaw.

Mensah: Urn, over all and looking at some of the students that we've already mentioned that graduated from George Mason and went on to do other things ....

Sweat: Clarence Townes was one of those students at George Mason.

Mensah: Clarence Townes. Uh, and he is uh, what in the city now?

Sweat: He's operator of the Metropolitan ....

Mensah: Uh, busline?

Sweat: Busline.

Mensah: Urn, people like he who have gone on to do things in this city, to to enhance the quality of life in the city uh, based on what we've talked about it seems what you're saying is that uh, a close family unit or supportive family unit, uh, involvement of the churches, uh, the dedication of teachers, uh, all work together for sucess of the students.

Sweat: I think that's quite evident you see the results of what young people from Church Hill have accomplished. Many of them I hold personally who have come to me and told me how happy they were that they stayed in school, went on to college and made something of themselves.

Mensah: In in trying to characterize maybe some of the physical attributes in Church Hill uh, as far as uh, now we have a great deal of emphasis being placed on St. John's Church and restoration of the area around St. John's Church, uh, and being a teacher uh, how important in your mind is it that these kinds of things be restored and are there comparable kinds of restoration or points of interest specifically related to the black community that you could site that also have the kind of influence of instilling pride in an individual?

Sweat: Fourth Baptist Church is a Historical Church. It's one of the oldest churches in the city of Richmond and it has played a deep ... it has had a deep influence upon the lives of certain people I would like to see that church reserved and saved historical wise, in Richmond. Then there's Mount Olivet. Mount Olivet has really... has uh, rebuilt itself. But all around that community was influence by, the church itself. I tried to tell it to the students by walks through the community, telling them about various things in the community with interest. We use to take walks in the afternoon, the student...classes

Mensah: You mentioned Mount Olivet and duh I was to say colleague, but a teacher as well as a minister, Rev. Bolder, J. Andrew Bolder was ....

Sweat: He was before my time.

Mensah: He was before your time? Urn, the area in which that church is located for a long time was a pretty compact community. Do any names come to mind of people from that community who you miqht have taught? Uh, the Mount Olivet area?

Sweat: It's such a long time, I can't..many of the students I have visible conception of but I just can't think of the names.

Mensah: Well, following uh, the second world war and coming into the 50's uh, Church Hill seemingly began to change. There was movement duh ... there was a great deal of movement as far as the whites moving out, there were blacks moving in from all sections of the town. What kind of effect did this have on the school system as far as you're concerned?

Sweat: When I first went to George Mason School in Springfield was two or three blocks from George Mason School was the to the school. They were the only two schools in Church Hill at the time. Blacks went to George Mason, Whites went to Springfield. There was no close relationship too. Uh, I don't know why. You know some of the teachers would ride over on the street in the morning,seemed to have had an aloof feeling toward each other and never corresponded. It's different now, thanks to integration. I was thinking about something

Mensah: Mr. Sweat, we've talked at length of your involvement at George Mason which extended some 30 years um, and also three uh, principlas, uh- can you give us some incite into the differences in the principals?

Sweat: Mr. George Morris was the first principal that I worked under. He was a Caucasian. And duh, he was a pretty fine person. Uh, I was under hime 3 or 4 years, and then Mr. Joseph T. Bright became the principal of the school. He was in followed Mr. McCloud. Curtis McCloud became the principal. I left George Mason during Mr. McCloud administration.

Mensah: Were there many chances in duh, say from the beginning to the last uh, that you think were positive kinds of changes at...

Sweat: When George Mason received a Black principal, progress was made

Mensah: And Mr. Bright was the first Black one.

Sweat: And the uh, Black schools became highly successful, because under Black Administrations, student could sense that Black Aministrators had a sincere interest inthem getting an education.

Mensah: Urn hum. So you feel that the fact that dedicated teachers uh, principals interested and really seeing that Blacks got an education made a difference uh, in the success or failure of of many of thestudent. Uh, you mentioned earlier that you also participated in the night school program. What was that like?

Sweat: I worked at Armstrong Night School quite a long number of the years. Night school. Former students of mine at George Mason became students of mine at Armstrong High School. Some finished and went on into nursing, business, and other endeavors.

Mensah: So uh, some of the students who may have appeared to be failures and in the regular school program actually came back too at night and and completed and was successful?

Sweat: Well, not necessarily failures but due to economic reasons they needed continued education.

Mensah: So education still played a large part in life as far as, or at least their desire for education uh, in getting them to come back, participating in night school program. Urn, how was it teaching night school when probably most of the people that you taught with also were adults? Urn, and I would imagine that some of them were even teaching their children at the same. How how was that?

Sweat: I taught many a child at George Mason While I was there I also taught the parents too. Uh, not only in Armstrong, but at George Mason I've taught children at George Mason, I also taught parents at Geroge Mason the children. Then I had duh, experiences at Armstrong High School where in uh, many people they'd given up until they came to me. But I always taught in my night school classes. Nights we had some of 'em say they wouldn't have gotten out of school had not been came there and get that sort of ...

Mensah: So you feel that uh, and I think you mentioned this earlier, that religion, you mentioned the church and it's role in the community, uh, that you feel in addition to that that duh searching the scriptures and studying the Bible. What if..what uh, effect do you think that have on the on the student?

Sweat: I think it raises morale issues makes them conscious of the fact that have to live a moral life to succeed.

Mensah: And the um.... listening to you it sounds as though you ... you know this is very strong issue with you ....

Sweat: It is ...

Mensah: Tat duh, life must..should be a moral life. Very good. Urn, some of your colleagues, would you care to mention a few of them? Uh, people uh, worked along side of you and duh, supported you and duh ... your career?

Sweat: Some of the close teachers that we worked as a team was Mrs. Ellis, Mrs.Wooldridge, Miss Coles, Ms. Samuels. We worked as team and I taught math and science, and others taught English, science, math

Mensah: You mentioned the team concept and many people would think that that's a new concept, but according to you this has been in operation for quite sometime.

Sweat: Uh, George Mason was the first school that started on a departmental Elementary or Middle School level. And a long time ago when Bright was principal, he was instrumental in really starting system. Emphasis was placed on studies such as math, science, and english. I think we had one of the best reading programs.

Mensah: And and you say this was uh instituted by Mr. Bright?

Sweat: Of course, the teachers asked for it.

Mensah: The teachers asked for it. So that that was a uh, sort of meeting of the minds of the principals and the teachers agreeing to institute this program. Well, judging from some of the graduates it apparently was a very successful program.

Sweat: I think our program was highly successful. [End of transcript.]

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