Church Hill - Toliaferro
Virginia Black History Archives
Church Hill Oral History Project
Transcript of interview with Mrs. Edith Toliaferro, September 2, 1982.
This is a taped interview with Mrs. Edith Toliaferro from 4705 W. Franklin Street. Mrs. Toliaferro has agreed to share her remembrances of life in the Fairmount area as well as life in the Jefferson Park area, Church Hill. This interview is being conducted in the home of Mrs. Toliaferro. The interviewer is Akida T. Mensah. The date is September 2, 1982.
I = Interviewer
N = Narrator
I- Mrs. Toliaferro, where were you born?
N - I was born on Stuart Street. At that time is was Stuart Street. It is now Spotsylvania Street.
I - And that's in the eastern section of Richmond?
N - An that's the eastern section of Richmond of what was known as Fairmount. At the time I thought Howard's Grove. I think you mentioned to me was taken into the City in 1906. (The section that she talked about probably came in around 1914).
I - 1906, yes.
N- I thought maybe later but that was where I was born. I lived there many years . I moved about 1928, just around Mosby Street, in the 1315 Mosby Street. An I lived there until I was married in 1932.
I - When were you born?
N - I was born in 1910.
I - And your birthdate?
N - June 22.
I - June 22, 1910. You said you were thinking that maybe the area come in later. When were you thinking it came in? to the City?
N - I thought it was about 1914. But I'm not sure. That what was in my head that we went into the city around that time. I have my birth certificate somewhere. I should look and see if it's Richmond or Henrico. I was looking at some material and the area north of Venable and Q came into the City around 1906. Prior to that I found out, it's my understanding had been independent area. It had its own mayor and etc. and was around 1906 that that area came into the City, and my interest in that was that my family home was also incorporated into the City at that time which was at 24th and Fairmount. Who were your parents and how long did they live in the area?
N - My mother was Eula Yarbrough and married my father who was Charles Mitchell in 1900, and the next year after they were married, possibly 1901 they bought this house on Stuart Street from her mother. And so it had been in the family and so it was continued to be our family home for many years.
I - Would you care to guess how long maybe your relatives had been in that area? approximately?
N - Yes. My father lived at Mechanicsville Pike at, which was, at Mechanicsville and Magnolia Street. Are you familiar with that?
I - Yes.
N - My grandfather built that house possibly around 1900, 1898 to 1900. And that was our family home until it was torn down and sold many many years later.
I - OK. So you grew up in what was known as Howard's Grove area and what was that area like at the time that you were growing up?
N - Well, like most , like I say I remember when it went into the City and we always went to City schools and attended City churches and we never thought about anything but being in the City. I was very young whenever this transposed, but I have heard my Mother talk about it being Howard's Grove.
I - So you lived for awhile on Stuart Street which is now I believe you said Spotsylvania, and then you moved to Mosby. Were you of school age when you lived on Mosby?
N - Oh yes, I was possibly 16 or so when I moved to Mosby Street.
I - What school did you attend first year elementary school?
N - What elementary school?
I - Yes.
N - Fairmount.
I - Fairmount. And what was that like?
N - It was a nice school and the old school is still there. They have laid or added many additions to it, but the old school faces T Street and 22nd Street, on the corner, and we had a good time.
I - Did you walk to school?
N - We walked to school. There was no other transportation. Of course there was only 5 or 6 blocks, but everybody walked. There was a streetcar that came down T Street. The end of the line was at our corner, up at Stuart Street. The next street over was Bryant. That was the end of the line. And so I'm sure the school teachers and the other people would come on the streetcar. There were very few cars.
I - Do you remember the name of that streetcar?
N - It was Fairmount Streetcar.
I - Fairmount Streetcar.
N - And it would run from there to 23rd and Marshall and you'd have to change cars to go to Broad Street. And you changed to a car that would come from the Church Hill area. But it was Fairmount and it only ran from that end of the line through up 22nd Street. You don't remember it. And it went up 22nd Street, it went up T Street and up 22nd and through that to 23rd and Marshall.
I - I was interested in that. And you're right--I don't remember that. How long did that line run, do you know?
N - Oh they put buses in I just don t know, after that development out in Peter Paul and out that way developed and they began to run buses in which extended to those people that lived further out in the Peter Paul area. And the bus would come straight down through Mechanicsville on Mosby Street and go back into town. But I just don't remember exactly the year that the streetcar was.
I - But you're saying that it was there until the buses ...
N - No after they, the buses, took place of the streetcar. They took the streetcar track up and discontinued the streetcar line altogether when they put buses in.
I - I think the buses were put in around 1948.
N - Probably so, but before that time the streetcar you know went across up T Street and all the way to 22nd Street and out 22nd Street which went on into 23rd by Springer's Drugstore. You don't remember that. And on out 23rd Street to 23rd and Marshall. And that was the end of the line and you changed cars there for a car to go uptown or Main Street to go down on Main Street.
I - You mentioned the Peter Paul area. And some old maps going back to 1860 show that it was a racetrack in Peter Paul area. I think it was called Fairfield Racetrack.
N - I think that I have heard of that. I never knew of that. Because Woodville was always there in my childhood and the Peter Paul area developed after that. But a racetrack was probably nearer Woodville and out in that way I'm not real familiar but I remember the Woodville area.
I - I ask the question because it is said that the Peter Paul Blvd. for example is built around that racetrack.
N - And may have been but not to my knowledge but maybe before my time but I didn't ever get there. But I feel like I would have known because when we were children my grandfather's house as I told you was built at Magnolia and Mechanicsville and which was approximately about a mile from where we lived and we just walked back and forth up and down that road all my early childhood days. We had no other way of going and we thought nothing of walking that distance.
I - So you went to Fairmount School and about when did you leave Fairmount?
N - Well we went through the 7th grade at that time and then of course I started school about 1916 and through the 7th grade and over to Bellevue.
I - That would have been the early 20's, I think, 21 or 22. And you went to Bellevue. What was that like? And how did you get to school?
N - It was a nice school and we usually walked to Bellevue though the Fairmount Streetcar was still running at that time because in bad weather we were allowed to ride the streetcar. There were no transportation furnished by the school systems in those days. We had school tickets and could ride the streetcar. But we usually walked through there to Bellevue School.
I - Was that fun walking? and ...
N - I never minded. It was just part of your life.
I - And going through--l take it that you went through some other neighborhoods. Were there ever any problems with that?
N -Never. Never gave it a thought.
I - And when you were at Bellevue, who was the principal, do you remember? The principal at Bellevue?
N - The principal at Bellevue was Mr. Woolfolk.
I - Mr. Woolfolk. Was he a Church Hill resident? to your knowledge?
N - I can't remember that, but I remember that he was the principal and it was a Mr. Givens was the principal at Fairmount and Mr. Woolfolk was principal at Bellevue and that was very nice and then from there we went across the bridge to John Marshall which was the only high school in those days. Richmond had only one high school.
I - So that by the time you finished Bellevue and went on to John Marshall where were you living, when you went to John Marshall?
N - I was living, let me see, I guess I was still on Stuart Street. I don't think I had moved to Mosby Street then. I was still on Stuart Street.
I - And did you also walk to John Marshall?
N - A lot of the times, but we, and as I said we were allowed a little more priviliges with the streetcar ticket, but we walked a lot too, because you could go down Mosby Street and cross the Marshall Street Bridge. We didn't think anything of that.
I - I take it that Thomas Jefferson hadn't been built at that time.?
N - No, Thomas Jefferson, I think, was built around 1929.
I - So as far as the rivalry, you're saying that John Marshall was the only high school and so there was no rivalry.
N - The next school was built in the West End was Thomas Jefferson. I don't, I'm not familiar with the date. They were probably Maggie Walker is the older of the two.
I - Armstrong is the older.
N - Armstrong is the oldest. Well maybe Armstrong was built at that time. They later built a middle school at East End but that was not built when I went to school. It was when my children went to school.
I - And so you went on to high school, and upon completion what did you do? Did you get married?
N - I was married not too long after high school. I never worked.
I - And you husband, Mr. Toliaferro?
N - Mr. Toliaferro, he worked for DuPont.
I - And hi,s first name?
N - Alvin, A-L-V-1-N.
I - So You finished high school and a short time after that you were married. And what did you do? How did that change your life?
N - Well, at that time it was shortly after the Depression and I guess one reason I didn't go to work, there were not too many jobs. I was married in 1932 and the Depression was in '29 and we were just beginning to come back a little. And my husband was working for DuPont which was always very good. He never was without work. They were cut back drastically but he always had work and so therefore we were able to pay the rent and in several years I had a child, a little boy and I had two boys, so they occupied my time.
I - You mentioned the Depression. How was that? Can you describe living during the Depression?
N - Well, I just remember reading about it. It did not affect me as much as a lot of people. As I mentioned to you, my father always had his own business and it seemed to do very well. I'm sure he felt some of the Depression, but we were never without jobs like a lot of people who worked in factories and what not who were without employment. And prices got mighty low and salaries were low so everything else compensated.
I - You mentioned your father having his own business. Would you repeat that?
N - Yes, he worked for, he managed Boze's Lumber Yard at 720 Mosby Street which was on the corner of Mosby and Venable, right in that area, 720, and Mr. Boze inherited the business from his father and he was a very very young man and they employed my father to manage the business. And he just stayed on and managed the business always, but of course it was Boze's Lumber Yard. It belong to Mr. Boze.
I - And that's B-O-Z-E.
N - B-O-Z-E. And he has a son that now lives in the West End, but, and my father died in 1953 and he was still managing the Lumber Yard. And it lasted a very short while after that, maybe a year or so, the business. But my father was very, he worked up until he died and he managed the Lumber Yard. That was the only thing he ever did. So we never really felt the Depression as much as some other people I'm sure.
I - Did you have a large family?
N - No I had one sister and one brother which are deceased. I'm the only one living. The three of us.
I - So you got married, well really at the tale end of the Depression, I guess.
N - Really, but it was still, as I said, jobs were scarce. I remember my husband working like 4 days a week, but he always had work, and so therefore, we always managed. But you didn't have the luxuries that you have today, with cars and the luxury things that the young people have today.
I - So you...
N - But you didn't know about them, so you didn't miss them.
I - Right. You got married and where did you live after getting married?
N - I lived for a short while in Highland Park when I was first married, maybe a year or two and then I moved to Jefferson Park. I came back on the Hill and lived on Jefferson Park. For six years. And my Mother passed away in 1943 and so I came back to that Mosby Street residence which my father lived still, and lived there another 10 years taking care of him. And when he died in 1953, the house was too large for me and I bought this house so I've not made very many moves. So we moved up here in 1953.
I - But up until that time, you were witness to many scenes in the Church Hill area. Is there any one event during that span of time, say from the early 1900's, 1915 say up until the time you moved from the area, is there any major event that comes to mind that sort of characterizes in your mind what that area of the City was like?
N - No, being born and raised over there, it's like any other part of the City. You're born and raised, you just knew that part, you lived there, you knew the community, you knew the Church people, you knew the storekeepers, you knew everybody, everybody was friends.
I - So it was pretty closely knitted for you?
N - Very close. You never had any fear of going out or walking out or being out at night or coming in at night or any of that type of thing. You knew everybody and it just didn't seem like it is today.
I -You mentioned Church, which Church did you belong to?
N - I belong to Fairmount Avenue Baptist.
I - And that was located at... ?
N - At the corner of 21st and Fairmount Avenue. It faced Fairmount Avenue on the corner of 21st and Fairmount Avenue.
I - And what was that like? What kind of activities were you involved in?
N - Well we had of course, there is young people's organizations which we always belonged to and always social events in the Church and like most people at that time, the Church was sort-of the center of social activity.
I - Did you, were there excursions and things of that nature?
N - Yes, in the summer we looked forward to an excursion to the beach which we rode the train and that was a big highlight in everybody's life.
I - And this was Buckroe Beach?
N - This was Buckroe Beach and would take place sometime during the summer and several of the neighborhood churches would go in together and would run this one big excursion which everybody would look forward to.
I - It's interesting that you said several of the neighborhood churches would go in together for one big event. Was this an opportunity to meet new people or were they people that you knew anyway?
N - No, I think this came more or less from the needs to finance it. So it took more than one church to finance something as large as this, to rent the train and finance the picnic, so it took more than one church, so the Methodist Church, the Presbyterian Church, and the Christian Church as well as I remember. I think it was four churches that would go in together and run this one big picnic. Because the other churches were even smaller and they could not have done it on their own. But not to meet the people. Everybody knew everybody whether you went to one church or another. You just knew everybody. And that was the big event.
I - You mentioned earlier that the earlier part of your life there were no movies in Church Hill. During that time when you had an occasion to go to the movies, which movie did you attend?
N - I can remember almsot none, but it could be on Broad Street, like the Bijou or some of those older theaters that were on Broad Street. But I did not, I remember almost none that I can remember. I may have been taken by an aunt or something at some time that I couldn't remember.
I - Did you have occasion to venture over to Libby Hill Park or over to Chimborazo Park in your early life?
N - Oh yes. That was a Sunday afternoon walk to Chimborazo Park, Jefferson Park, Libby Hill Park. The parks were used a lot by people, as I said on a Sunday afternoon maybe.
I - Were they, these Sunday afternoon outings, were they a picnic or just a walk?
N - Just a walk in the park more or less. No they never did any picnicing in the parks. They were more or less kept pretty and people just used them to walk around, sit on the benches.
I - You mentioned the drugstores, Springer's and I believe there was Fairmount Drugstore.
N - Fairmount Drugstore was at 22nd and Fairmount Avenue. And they were sort-of a highlight. You went there for your confections. There were no ice cream stores and ice cream parlors and that type of thing. You went to the drugstore for your soda.
I - So these were sort-of gathering places?
N - Sort-of gathering places, right. But they handled more drugs then. That had a little confection counter with a few chairs and tables but at that time they handled more drugs.
I - Where did you shop? And were there other businesses in the area that you grew up?
N - There were a lot of small stores. Mrs. Baker ran a store at Mosby and T Street. And there were a lot of small grocery stores but there were not any super- markets. The first one I remember was on Jefferson Avenue, the A&P Store opened there, but my mother used to go to the 17th Street Parket once a week, to get special meats and things. And we did go to 17th Street Market, I remember that. And then you had a lot of hucksters that would come around with vegetables and that type of thing. -Was this horse drawn carts?
N - Horse drawn carts and they would bring vegetables all during the summer and you would go to the market for your meat and you'd go to the local store, little grocery, for your bread and what not that you picked up. CCA Ball Park was located at I think 20th and about R Street and it was a place that we did go for baseball games mostly. There was a lot of competition there between the tobacco companies and they would have rival teams that would play hardball, not softball like they played in some of the sandlots today. They played hardball. And it was quite an event and you got interested in them and interested in any one team if you knew people that worked for some of the tobacco companies, why you would follow the teams, and it was quite an event.
I - And by the tobacco teams you are talking about Lucky Strike and ...
N - Lucky Strike and American Tobacco and all of them have moved now who made Chesterfields and just different ones of the tobacco companies would have teams that would rival and play ball. That was one of the things. There may have been other teams that played there also, but I particularly remember the tobacco teams because there were a lot of people that lived on Church Hill and in Fairmount that worked in the tobacco companies because that was one of Richmond's big industries through that period. And being close to the tobacco factories were on the lower part of town, the people lived in Church Hill and Fairmount and the tobacco was a great industry around that period of time.
I - So this is one of one of the places where sports events and people went to sort-of enjoy themselves and have recreation and I believe that was called Christ Church Association, CCA. In talking to Dr. Hicks, I believe, who said he had played in that league in his boyhood.
N - You know I never remember what the CCA stood for, but I just knew where CCA Ball Park was. But I actually, that's the first time I have ever heard what it stood for. We weren't interested in what it stood for, we were just interested in going there for an event.
I - And having a good time.
N - Later of course the City built Luck's Field which was built by the City Department of Recreation on T Street, T and about 20th and T, between 19th and 20th on T Street, which I think there still have a swimming pool and so forth in there, but that was built in my young married life. My children, when I moved back, used that a lot, but that was built by the Department of Recreation. But we did not have anything there when I was growing up.
I - Well, that's all very interesting. Once the Luck's Field was built, did the groups that Played at CCA move to Luck's?
N - Well by that time this group, the groups that would participate at CCA had grown older and that sort-of gave out and the newer groups played at Luck's Field. [End of transcript.]
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