Transcript of interview with L. Douglas Wilder, September 23, 1982. Wilder was serving as a state senator when the interview took place. He went on to become governor of Virginia - the first African-American governor in United States history.
This is a taped interview with Senator Lawrence Wilder. Senator Wilder grew up in the Church Hill area, and has agreed to share his memories of Church Hill with us. This interview is being conducted by Akida T. Mensah, September 23, 1982 in the office.
I - Senator Wilder, where were you born?
N - I was born 933 North 28th Street in Church Hill, Richmond, Virginia. I said Church Hill because the, at that time, you had the sections Church Hill, Fulton, Burleys Hill, Jackson Ward, Clay, South Richmond, Sydney in the WestEnd, Dog Bottom, Woodville. So I was born in Church Hill.
I - When were you born?
N - January 17, 1931. Born there at the house and was delivered by a mid-wife. I don't think there were too many, I think my youngest sister was delivered by a doctor and she was born in a hospital. I think everybody else...
I - Do you remember the name of the mid-wife?
N - I have it recorded. I might have it here with me. The name of the mid-wife is listed on the birth certificate.
I - When you grew up, there on 28th Street?
N - That is correct.
I - What was the name of your parents?
N - My mother's name was Beulah Richards Wilder. She was born in Charles City and her people came here to live in Richmond, Chesterfield County. Well rather what we call Chester, and my father's name was Robert J. Wilder. My mother was an only child and my father was the youngest of a family of 14, and his name was Robert Judson Wilder. His father's name was James Wilder and his mother's name was Agnes Wilder.
I - And your grandparents were you say, former slaves?
N - Yes, they, my grandparents on my father's side were both slaves and they were owned by the same family that at one time up until approximately the time they had three young children and then my grandfather was sold to Ashland. My grandfather and my mother, grandmother stayed here. She was, her responsibility was teaching and tutoring the young whites and some account is given that she was able to get enough education to do that for them, to be able to educate her own brood. After the War my grandfather rejoined his family. My grandfather came back and built a house at 933 North 28th Street, which my father subsequently tore down and built the house that I was born in at 933 North 28th Street. So we've, that is the only home, we've known as free people.
I - You mentioned the family being sold. Does that, do you know the name of the family that..?
N - I have a chronicle on it and my sister, in Detroit, Auga has some information. There is some question as to whether it's that family or not. The question is whether they were at one time known as Wileys or whether they were in fact Wilders. As you know during that time slaves were not permitted to have their own last name. The only names they could have would be surnames. Family names were the names of plantations of the person where they came from.
I - Well, let's get back to you. Which elementary schools did you go to?
N - I went to, well first, I went to what was called Elba School. It was on West Marshall Street. It was a school that they had that was called preelementary. And you couldn't, it was not, it was public, but it wasn't such as that everybody could go. I think I was about four, four and a half years old and I went with Jean Harris and Iris Wingfield and Howard Payne and we were all the same age and Jean and Iris were first cousins. Jean's father was Iris's mother's brother. And Howard's mother was Jean's father's and Iris's mother's brother, so they were all first cousins. Luckily they all had automobiles. No one in my family owned a car. So if I was to get there I was to all ride with them. After that we then went to a school on 28th Street, a Miss McClendon and a lady I've forgotten the name, we used to call Miss Kate and the name that come to me is Mrs. Woodson. They taught a one room giant school house that you remember on 28th Street and the seven, six hundred block on 28th Street and it was called Kindergarten. It was a small amount of money from someone, but funded to the extent that we had books and things like that. I guess it was precursor to day care education. I was at that time only five years old and then subsequently I went to George Mason Elementary School. My first teacher was Mrs. Anna Malloy - Mrs. Malloy lived on 27th Street in the 900 block.
I - Did Mrs. Malloy live on Church Hill?
N - Mrs. Malloy lived on 27th Street in the 900 block. I lived in the 900 block on 28th Street. So we, I just thought that she was a very attractive lady. And I use to tell my mother, oh she so pretty, and my mother as you know was much older than I was, being close to 40 when I was born. So I thought she was an old lady.
I - Were many of your teachers from Church Hill that you recall?
N - Oh yes, quite a few of them at that time. It was almost an entrustment of care and yet there were some who, like Mrs. Rosa Wilkerson, as a matter of fact I was with her yesterday in Norfolk, at a Masonic thing and I spoke to the audience, and we talked about age and I said, well I couldn't be but so old because my fourth grade teacher is here in the audience, and she would have to agree that I was still young. But she was from Church Hill and many of the others. And a Mrs. Olphin was from South Richmond, Mrs. Olie Freeman, I meant, I'm sorry Mrs. Ellis was from Northside, Mrs. Jones was from South Richmond. There were any number of other teachers at the school who were from Church Hill, even though they were not necessary teaching me. My sister for instance, Naomi, was from Church Hill but she never taught in the East End until later years. She spent most of her earlier teaching career in South Richmond. We almost got gravitated to a school and people stayed in school that they liked.
I - What, who were some of your classmates and generally what were you impressions of Church Hill during this period?
N - Well [I] thought Church Hill was really a city because it was just so unusual. First, my classmates were people like Fleming Davis, Allan Roots, Jean Harris as I mentioned, Cleophus Wade and Clyde Jones. I'm leaving out a name that I know. Oh, Welford Payton, Ruth Harris and Rosa, I've forgotten what her last name was, but I've, these were very, very bright people and very highly motivated which is amazing to look back and see how these people could have had the degree of motivation with what little we had collectively. I thought as I said Church Hill was a city because I lived at 28th and P right across the street was a giant, beautiful church, diagonally across from me was a hardware store, directly across the street was a printing shop, right behind the printing shop was a blacksmith shop, to the left of the printing shop was a saw mill, one block further down was a big laundry, there was a confectionary on the next corner, one corner to the right was a bakery, two cleaning and pressing shops to the right of that on Q Street, there was a butcher shop one block from there, there was a barber shop, two barber shops within two blocks, there was an ice house, within one block and I'm not speaking about fly by night operations. hese were good places that supplied the better part of other places in the City. There was a dance hall one block from me, there was a pool hall one block, a butcher shop which I've spoken of, several restaurants and another drugstore, two drugstores within two blocks, a movie house within one block. I guess what I'm saying is that there was nothing, a department store at 29th and Q andthere was little to want for that wasn't in that two or three block radius. So you didn't, in my own backyard, for instance, my father being an agrarian by training I guess, had every conceivable type of domestic animal. We had about 200 homing pigeons. We never bought eggs from, my father always had chickens in the yard. He had an enclosure which he called, which was a stable that he had used to house other people's animals. Horses, which I believe he charged rental for them. And we had ducks and geese and guineas, gander, and rabbits, a pond for them in the backyard, then we had that type of exposure which means I didn't think we had to go to too many places to get too many things while we were in Church Hill.
I - What kinds of things did you do as young person growing up in Church Hill?
N - Well, the things that, first of all, we were trying though I felt as I did that feeling wasn't shared by the people of Church Hill. So the boys in Church Hill played together. You couldn't go to Fulton to play. That would be a fight. Fulton couldn't come to us to play cause that would have been a fight. You couldn't go to Burleys' Field which is now an area occupied by Juvenile Court system and near the jail where we are, you couldn't go down there, that would be a fight. Down, I'd go uptown, I say uptown, we cross the viaduct to Jackson Ward, and we couldn't really go past Marshall Street because that would be the white enclaves. So ours was a very closely knit type situation. Every morning during the summer that was a baseball game, then the stick ball in the streets. Then waiting for the playgrounds to open. We would have to box the same fellow everyday, even though you couldn't beat him, but you still kept trying to beat him. Almost constant engagement in some athletic endeavor. Though it wasn't formal and although it wasn't structured, we just did it. The camaraderie was a great, families knew each other, it wasn't a question of saying anything improper to anyone else, cause you'd get two whippings, one from that person and another one when you got home. So our lives were full of being busy, there weren't that many jobs to do, except the things individuals did themselves. I use to, I had what I called a window washing thing. I would carry my little squeegee and chammy cloth with me, and I use to try to paint signs on windows, and then I use to try to work at every place that would have me. I learned to set type in the print shop. Even learned how to shoe a horse, I never did, and I would shine shoe, I shined shoes in a bootblack place across the street from up until the time I was in college. I used the barber shop as my lecturing hall. My forum was the barber shop as you know, because you used to come in there too. And it was great training because it gave me an opportunity to listen to other people and learn and then to sound off myself.
I - You mentioned barber shop, and I know but what barber shop?
N - It was what they called Church Hill Barber Shop but actually it was Dick Reid that ran the place and his brother Percy Reid and I were great friends until the time of his death. And they encouraged me to speak out and to, they encouraged me to say things that they felt they did not have the opportunity to have as a result of curtailment of their educational activities. For instance, they use, and that was a time, when it was a badge of honor to have hung in the barber shop and other places of public accommodation where voters registration drives were carried on and they use to say when someone opened his mouth, "Douglas, look in the book and see if you see his name." And if his name wasn't in the book we wouldn't let him talk so he couldn't talk because he was not a registered voter and we didn't allow it and so he just couldn't do it, and that little gimmick was so embarrassing to so many people that they would immediately go and register to vote and then come back and if their name wasn't in the book they would pull out their card and slip and say I can do it because I can vote. And it meant a lot to us to see that we were finally engaging in soRR degree of upward mobility. One thing that did impress me during that time was in, we didn't have any real forum. So many people then as now believe whatever is printed is true. Whatever they see in the newspapers because there wasn't any television as you know until the later forties. But whatever you saw in the newspapers, whatever was said on the radio had to be true. We, it was a dispirited situation, and yet you could feel a brimming hope, somewhere abiding.
I - Who were some of the people you admired, adults when growing up?
N - Well, I use to think a great deal of James Christian. I use to look out my window and see, I went to First African Baptist Church which is at 14th and Broad. We use to walk right there across the viaduct. But if we were too late we would go to Fourth Baptist Church so a lot of people thought my family were members of Fourth Baptist, but I use to always like to look out the windows and I would see the people standing there. I'd see James Christian standing out with his lieutenant bars on his uniform. Pilot.
I - When you say James ... you're talking ...
N - Delegate James Christian, and I said, "My goodness how this man here, a pilot." And I use to see Marion Robinson come out and he would have his Navy regalia on. His father had been in Navy for years and would have all these stripes up and down his arm. I use to, you know, as I said, Percy Reid spent a great deal of time with me, not giving me a education, of course, because it was not his to give. But he would give me much folklore and as much understanding as he could, explaining various aspects. So these were some of the people that help. Carter Christian at the bootblack parlor, I use to listen to him and Jake Snotty. And he is dead now, but it's amazing the types of things people can tell you even though you may think you know something. It was almost as if they were saying you had an opportunity to do a little more than we do. So go ahead and do it. My next door neighbor Mr. Samuel Spriggs was a man of great intellect. He was a bachelor all his life. He was steeped and storied in Masonry and he knev it. Mr. Harrison Beverly use to come by. My father use to have his own little forum hanging over the porch, smoking his pipe and several people use to come by and they would talk. Mr. Tom Bailey, he'd had a barber shop on 29th Street. They would come. I use to listen at the old fellows and being quiet you can learn a lot. So I had a lot of people.
I - Who were some of your neighbors? You mentioned a few, who were some?
N - Well we, the Youngs, the Youngs lived right next to Mr. and Mrs. Johnson, were my immediate next door neighbors. The Youngs lived next to that and cousins lived across the street. McClendons lived in that block. The Argroes lived in that block. Clyde Thomas and his family lived further up. Helen Woolridge and Mr. and Mrs. Lewis lived around the corner and the Malloys lived around the corner. Preston Calvin lived right around the corner on 27th Street and the, I thinking about Charles, and Sue Poindexter lived 30th Street. The Winslows lived there on 28th Street, the Websters lived there in the 800 block of 28th Street, Lomaxes, 800 block 28th Street. So there was any number of people and as I said it was a closely knit section of Church Hill.
I - Is there any one person that you feel influenced your life from others?
N - Well, I, certainly, my mother was the most influencing force in my life and I think so because well I spent more time with her. My mother was a high school graduate but you would think she had certain master's degrees because not that she professed it but as a person she was very skilled in the English language, and honed it by working crossword puzzles and there was never a word that I ever sprang on her that she didn't know the meaning of it. She would spring many on me that I didn't know. So she was a constant challenge to me and I was always impressed by lack of fear. She didn't fear anything. And she wasn't a "don't". She always believed that you could do whatever you wanted to be. She never for anything herself, pomp and ceremony. As a matter of fact one night some visitors came to the home. She rarely left the kitchen. Any one who wanted to see her had to come to the kitchen. David Temple was a great influence. He was a very good friend of my family's and I left him out not meaning to. These people use to come to speak to her on just a regular basis, come by, and I'd be there to listen, so I would say she was the greatest influence in my life.
I - Was she political minded in any way or did you justget this influence..?
N - No she wasn't political minded. She, her theory was she believed in keeping your thoughts better to yourself. Hone yourself, develop your material. For instance, if it hadn't been for my mother I wouldn't have never finished college. I didn't have money to go to college. My father made it very clear that he just couldn't send me to college. So when I finished high school, my mother said you must go to college. I wanted to volunteer and go into the service because I was just tired of being the raggedist boy in high school and tired of being the guy who never had the money to carry a girl out on a date. My mother just would not hear of it and fortunately there was a school at Virginia Union where yot could take 15 dollars down and 20 dollars down. I don't have to tell you because you went there too. The few dollars that you could have and she would do it. Her whole thng was just that you can't do anything unless you are prepared. Her heroes. She said she named me after Paul Lawrence Dunbar and Frederick Douglas for different reasons. She said she liked the fact that Dunbar was literary at a time when blacks were not suppose to be and Frederick Douglas had the courage not only to obtain his own freedom but also to reach back and help others.
I - That's interesting. Did you decide, better, when did you decide that you wanted to go into law?
N - I decided that I was better suited for law when I was in the, my third year of college. I was indicating that I was going to be a dentist. My field was chemistry, but I felt I put so much time in chemistry that I didn't have the background for law. So I would qo on and it my degree in chemistry. Which I did, but I had, I think a natural feeling for what I had found the law to be. I was misguided. I thought law was meant to attract those who were gifted talkers and speakers and that's not what law is about at all. And then when I came out of service I went to work in the Medical Examiner's Office and there was a man who had a law degree from Columbia and then I decided after two years to go into law school. My mother wanted to question it because I had a fairly good job by those days standards and she questioned whether it would be wise to give that up. Why not go on and get a master's in chemistry and subsequently a doctorate? But I didn't love it. I liked what I was doing but I didn't love it. So I went into law and found it to be a most fascinating field.
I - You, along with one of your heroes, James Christian, both attended George Mason and I believe Henry Marsh attended George Mason.
N - I don't know that. I met Henry in Law School. The very first time I met Henry was in Law School and what if ...
I - What if anything did he say to you and you to him?
N - Richmond, Virginia, I said part and he said Church Hill and I couldn't think and I said do you know me and he said no I don't know you. I said you don't know me and you lived in Richmond and he said yes. Well it appears that he had lived in Richmond and he had even lived in Church Hill even though we were only a couple years different in age, I the first time I ever saw him was in Law School. I'm not aware, I don't know whether he went to George Mason but I've heard that he have, but I don't know.
I - I raise that question, well I get to that, but I do recall seeing his name on the class books of 1945, '46, but I raised that question because I was wondering if there was something about George Mason that might have early, had early influence on you as far as law is concerned. Were there teachers or particular emphasis on the law makers? You know were there strong emphasis on history or..?
N - Well the strongest emphasis I received came from Joe Ransom at Armstrong. I guess that was the strongest teacher influence I ever had and he taught Negro History as they called it. The teachers at George Mason zealously guarded those of us entrusted to their care to the extent of demanding the best of us. For instance, if you could do well and get an A by doing nothing, they wouldn't give you an A. They would say that the fact that you weren't putting your best interest forward, consequently you would be graded not just on your answer but your effort. They were concerned about how you came to school. How you conducted yourself, how you were dressed, how you left. Unfortunately a lot of us who participated didn't have that so I would think collectively they helped to mold the framework which subsequently developments emerged. And what I mean, we went to Armstrong, even though we didn't have training that some of the other elementary schools had, we didn't have a cafeteria. In George Mason we didn't have an auditorium when we didn't have a gymnasium when I was there and we had outdoor toilets when I was there. But none of them contributed negatively to the teachers' efforts concerning the degree to which we were prepared. When I went to high school I felt I was prepared mentally as many whites.
I - You were saying that upon reaching high school you felt as prepared as any student in the school system.
N - Yes. This didn't mean that I knew, for instance, as you know some places high school, elementary school, now days, they have Trigonometry and courses in English and Algebra that high schools sometime didn't have. This didn't mean that I was familiar as much with the subject matter, but the, if I had been exposed to it to have to deal with it, I could have because my mind was attuned and receptive to study.
I - So you're saying that the preparation that you got at the school prepared you for academia.
N - So much so I would like to see that same type of commitment and dedication in half of the teachers today. Our teachers didn't concern themselves with what they were. They weren't rich people but you didn't hear them talk about what they didn't have. Let their own problems get in the way of what they were doing with us They weren't goofing off, they were giving full time with us and it is so marvelous to see in retrospect that they did make that commitment to us. Had they not, what with societal neglect, in terms of what state and government was doilng to us, we'd have been ruined.
I - Can you, in looking back, and comparing the time, can you sight any reasons fortheir being, probably being more dedicated, interested in students? Whether a sign of the times, most people were more interested, other interested than self interested at that time do you think?
N - I think so. I think the latter observation is correct, You had, as I said, the Booker T. Washington School, saying let's do something for each other and for others whether the people agreed with it or not. Drop your bucket where you are. The DuBois saying you must educate that talented tenth of us. Then you still had the carry over in these two individuals from Douglas which says we just can't be satisfied with our feelings, we got to reach back. And you've got the Marcus Garvey movement in Harlem, New York saying that blacks have got to be nationally concerned about themselves. So I think all of that those persons that were instructing us they knew they were not accepted as first class, as full class, involved persons. So they, it was a collective thing, they were saying "listen we've got to work, our job is not finished, we've got to really hone up and develop." And I think it was almost the exception rather than the rule to be otherwise.
I - In listening to you, I'm hearing that the neighborhood as well was supportive of achievement in young people, people who had ability. You've mentioned the barber shops and the talks that went on there, the gimmick to get people to vote or be quiet if they weren't involved in the community affairs and political affiars. You mentioned the talks of the older people, the school.
N - hen we also had the parade of young talents, we had, as you know, because you've been involved yourself, your parents and relatives. The silver teas that were given on Sundays, we would have the young black people, boys and girls come to recite their poems and had to take two months to get it ready. But get it ready, sing a song, whether you could sing or not. We had a play, whether you were going to be president or not, but it was all giving you the exposure to stand before the public, to be independent, to understand and appreciate culture at an early stage. To understand that no civilization, none can prosper without culture. So in addition to the things that I had previously enumerated, you had silent workers in the community, people wanted to show off their young talent, the people who would today missing a note on singing a song would next year or so would be the accompanist to someone singing beautifully. Many of us learned self reliance at that early stage by being able to look an audience in the face and not be afraid of what an audience would do if you forgot the lines, or if you forgot the words. So that likewise contributed to much of what we don't have today.
I - In your movings through the neighborhood, were you associated, you mentioned, that you were engaged in athletics though it wasn't organized. Did you participate in any organization athletics during your childhood?
N - Well, yeah, I went out when I say organized, we had out little group. We weren't bad, a little football team organized to the extent that we would play every chance we could. And we had the "O" Street baseball team and we would skate of the streets. The only organized thing that I really, I guess, was when I went out for Virginia Union's Football team and was cut because I was too small. And then I subsequently went out and played with Oakwoods Steam Rollers. They were all grown men except a few. Bus Fatty Russeel, Shorty Green and myself.
I - Could you elaborate on that, the Oakwood Steam Rollers?
N - Well the Oakwood Steam Rollers team was a football team that had always existed, since I've known it, anything about it, the men who had gone to the high school and either played football, gone to other places, or who were just good and never had an opportunity. There was a time when the boys from Church Hill weren't playing openly with the two high schools that we had, Armstrong and Walker, especially with Armstrong. We didn't have that many so this was a, they call it a semi-pro team, they would get paid for it. I played one year as a single wing quarterback. But it was a very good experience, to be able to go around with the guys, travel, take to various places and I see them on occasion now. Some of the older guys. They were harder on each other in practice than they were on the enemy on Sunday when they played the game.
I - I asked you to elaborate because that team, I think was somewhat of an institution. Oakwood Playground being the playground, its teams were somewhat institutionalized. I think I'd heard of them before I was big enough to play anything.
N - They were great, and they had some tremendous ballplayers out there. The guys that they had, all things being equal had they been nurtured on through high school, college, they could have been in pro ball, there is no question. One of my cousins, for instance, Bob Evans, played baseball and he was a professional pitcher with the Newark Eagles. He and Raymond Dandridge. Oh my goodness, Raymond Dandridge and my cousin would come back during the winter, they didn't do any work during the winter. These guys made so much money during the summer that they didn't have to work! And my cousin was blind in one eye and I never knew how he could pitch being blind but he was a tremendous pitcher, he would have been no question. And as you know, Dandridge went to play with the Newark Giants, a triple A baseball team and he was well in his forties then. When they called him up they played and to hear them speak of the Josh Gibsons, the Satchel Paiges for a first hand basis was too much for my young heart to handle.
I - You've named quite a few businesses in the area. Can you remember Peter Nigro's which was located in back of your house?
N - Yes, I have heard of that place, but when I was there the Boisseau's had a fish market right behind me and the barber shop and I think the Nigro place was supposed to have been right around the corner where a vacant lot was subsequent to the Boisseau's, but I don't remember these persons.
I - What about the Pitchfords, were they..?
N - Yes, the Pitchfords lived right around the corner on 29th Street. Very good friends of our family, they were mutual friends and Betty Gilliam lived around the corner. The Thomases who lived next door to the Pitchfords. It was just a one, oh Preston Christian family. They are cousins of mine, they lived over on 0 Street. The Millers, Sammy Stovall and others.
I - I mentioned the Pitchfords because during my school time, I imagine this was the grandmother used to bake pies. At lunch time we use to all go over and buy pies from them and I was wondering if you remembered.
N - You know I had an aunt, a great aunt, my mother's aunt who use to sell, she livedon 29th Street in the 800 block. And she use to bake pies and foods to sell to the construction workers. And she had a Model T Ford and she would bake all her stuff up and put it in that Ford and take it out. My mother used to ask me to always help her. I use to love to go because I knew I would get some of those pies. And the men would pay minimum cash. They went on by pay day. She would go and take that food and she would bring soup, bowls, spoons. They wouldn't have to have anything. Home cooked food which they have to have digging them ditches. You know they would be from the road construction and laying streetcar lines, etc.
I - What was her name?
N - Her name was Kate Richardson.
I - You mentioned the streetcars.. Did you recall any incidents, any kind of incidents as far as the streetcars are concerned?
N - Yeah, well the end of the line was right at 29th and P, and as I said I lived at 28th and P. And I, there was thing, you know, the boys would always pull the trolley with the things on the cable and pull the trolley off the cable so it couldn't run. And I remember quite vividly one of my earliest experiences was with segregation. Why I couldn't sit down on that streetcar and my mother would try to explain and yet I'd seen so many instances in which people would just refuse to move and they had to call the police. This was a symbol of the fact the black people were tired for being treated like second class citizens. It wasn't easy for us. And that was a seeing experience which says we paid dearly for what we have. And our young people need to be aware of it.
I - Are there other events that come to mind, that you feel is important enough to be recorded for posterity?
N - Well you know in each of the things that I have enumerated it looked to me as if all of the really prestigious establishments were owned by whites in the black community. The only whites who lived in the area were merchants who lived on top or behind their stores. I don't know of any other than Jewish merchants who did that. It was amazing to me that people could find gold in a community but didn't want to live where the gold mine was. Another thing that impressed me was the Robinson Theatre. George Clarke would stand out there with a cigar in his mouth and I would think he was a wealthy man. Those were the impressions of a child. People would to to the theatre like they were going to a premiere on Broadway. We had a lumber yard right down the street on 28th Street. I just can't think of any that wasn't there and you can't say that's the same type of thing that we had existed in every section of the City. You just couldn't find it and of course a lot of people in Church Hill area didn't go no where else becasue they didn't have to. And a lot of people didn't come over here because they didn't have to come over here. But I, it's revitalization that comes about now, restores building but it don't really restore whatever it was we had. The community spirit, the community will and the thread of family and families just knew each other and loved each other. There was no question and you didn't say anything against one of those families if you were at someone's home, you ate there and if you were at this house you ate there. Parents minded each other's children. And people were more willing to battle against the elements, walking and playing in the snow at Christmas time.
I - You mentioned restoring houses and it seemingly you were alluding to you seemed to be missing restoring people, the real value of people. I know you don't claim to be a sociologist, or minister or whatever, but what kinds of things do you think can now be done to restore some of that?
N - Well you know we had an excellent opportunity in Model Neighborhoods to touch into that and I think we became more concerned with bricks and mortar rather than trying to inculcate and reinculcate some of the appreciations of human values, human needs, and not to give up on bricks and mortar. That's important but to understand that, that is not as important as human values and human services. Building and places vanish and can be rebuilt and restored, but the memories of people is something we have to deal with now. And I think black people have a double obligation to retrench their efforts to do this because what you and I are talking about now will not be televised or put in the newspapers. But recording where we came from and how we got here will enable people and then they will know to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. And to educate their families and send them on to educate other that they make positive contribution. We need to be about the business of doing ourselves for ourselves. We've got the talent and there isn't anything to be done in this country that we don't have the know how and thd training to do. Nothing! We can run the government there is no question. The state and national both. We have got to start doing it and not let the past offer us opposition but by the same token, we should never forget and ought be constantly reminded of where we come from and not ever forget it.
I -Well Senator I have thoroughly enjoyed this interview.
N - Not half as much as I have.
I - And I appreciate you're taking this time to share your memories and your thoughts with me and hopefully, something good will come out of this. We [are] making plans to get it into script form and slide tape presentation. We hopefully will preserve it for future generations.
N - I will say to you that that effort is a part of what I was referring to when I said these are the things we need to start to do. And I think you should be commended for seeing the need and recognizing it.
I - Well sometimes the times are bright for certain things. I have been caught in the same situation where I felt the need to do something but wasn't prepared at the time or just wasn't open to it at the time. And I think we all go through that. But I appreciate you allowing me this opportunity.
N - Oh! listen it was my honor.
Questions
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