Church Hill - R. Wilkerson

Virginia Black History Archives

Church Hill Oral History Project

Transcript of interview with Mrs. Rosa Wilkerson, March 30, 1982.

Life in Church Hill. This is a tape interview with Mrs. Rosa Wilkerson in her home at 621 Overbrook Road. Mrs. Wilkerson is a retired school teacher, former Girl Scout Leader, church worker, and a long time resident of Church Hill. Though Mrs. Wilkerson now lives in the North Side of Richmond, she spent many years in Church Hill residing and contributing to the community well-being. Mrs.Wilkerson was fondly thought of by the youth of Church Hill, particularly those attending Fourth Baptist Church and George Mason School. Amongst the adults, she was considered a good friend, confidant, and an able person with the children. She and her husband, Linwood Wilkerson, were for many years fine neighbors, church workers, friends of the community. This interview is being conducted March 30th, 1982 by Akida T. Mensah.

Mensah: Mrs. Wilkerson, where were you born?

Wilkerson: In Richmond, right over Church Hill.

Mensah: You were born in Church Hill?

Wilkerson: Yes.

Mensah: Where in Church Hill were you born?

Wilkerson: On 27th Street, in the 1400 block. I think the house is still standing.

Mensah: 27th Street in the 1400 block?

Wilkerson: Yes.

Mensah: Okay. And your parents, who were they?

Wilkerson: Uh, uh, my mother's name was Effie, she was a Williams originally; and my father's was George Robinson; and interestingly enough he always said that his real name was not Robinson, he was an ex-slave, and he said he remembers being a Redmond, but the family that had him had the name Robinson and they made him take the name Robinson. So we never knew anything about the Redmonds but he has often told us that.

Mensah: Urn hum. He..was he born in the Church Hill area?

Wilkerson: No, he was not. He was never quite sure of any of... my father was a former slave. He was much older than my mother. He was not sure of his age, but he did remember that when the war ended he was old enough to vote. But as to his exact age, he wasn't too sure.

Mensah: And by the war you mean the Civil War?

Wilkerson: Yeah, that was the Civil War, that's it.

Mensah: And uh, so your father's name was George, and your mother's name was Effie?

Wilkerson: Effie, uh huh.

Mensah: Uh, do you know anything about your grandparents?

Wilkerson: Well, my..oh my. I don't know anything about my grand ... on my father's side. But on my mother's side, they from the area down..I think it's below Fulton is known as Deep Bottom. I remember some water being down there, that sort of thing. And uh, she evidently grew up in Richmond because she married my father, when they first married they lived in Woodville, but it was...I donna still Woodville. Yeah still Woodville, and then after marrying they started living on Church Hill. And had a bunch of us children. (laughs)

Mensah: You mentioned uh, that there were a lot of you children. Uh, how many were there in the family?

Wilkerson: Well, there were eleven, and strangely enough the ..every other one died. I'm the last.

Mensah: So you're the youngest?

Wilkerson: Yes.

Mensah: Of eleven children?

Wilkerson: Uh huh.

Mensah: What kind of work did your parents do?

Wilkerson: My mother, well I guess you call her then..they called her the housekeeper. She stayed home. And she did the work that an untrained person did. She was taking in the washing, that sort of thing. But my father always had that independent idea. He didn't want to work for anybody. And he used the expression, strangely enough he always go for the Black man. At that time I don't remember anyone else talking about the Black man. And if a crisis caught him or something he said, "They do everything to get the Black man's money". And at that time we laughed about it. But now we hear Black and its so different. I mean it isn't too different because we had grown up with it. And he had his own little broom factory. At that time we were living on 25th Street, 25th? In the same block as Mount Olivet Church. The address was 1203, I think the house has been torn down. And in our backyard he had his broom factory. I don't believe he needed a permit then. He had built this, had all the machines, and brooms were handmade, sewn individually, they would bunch them and sell them to stores. A number of stores brought brooms from him. We called it the Richmond Broom Company. He even taught me to make a broom, and I could operate those hand machines at that tinie. And uh, after his death, his son by his first wife took over the business. And as a result of that uh, his son, now Matthew J. Robinson II II? Something like that, anyhow and he has his own little broom.. Imperial Broom Factory on 21st Street. But it started with my father.

Mensah: Uh huh. Uh, so the Matthew Robinson now has a broom factory on 21st Street? Uh, and it was a result of your father's ....

Wilkerson: My father's independence. Who never wanted to work for anyone. He wanted to be an independent person. And uh, I guess he was right. He didn't become rich at it but he stuck to his broom making. And the humorous part of it he sold brooms to everyone but we never had a new broom at all. (laugher) So uh, and uh, he is..another thing about him I remember, his insisting that he would read. And I've known times that food would be scarce, clothes would be scarce, but he'd come home with an arm full of books. Anywhere he passed there were books on sale, he would come home with these boo to the family and we read everyting. (Laughter) Novels, anything, things beyond our age, and I regret now sometimes we did not stop and listen to a number of things that he would have told us concerning his life. But I do remember he said that he had a brother and his brother was sold in slavery to some family. He said they never got together again. But shortly before his death he heard something about this brother, but before we could follow through with it to see what this brother was like, he died. So he never saw him. But he was of slave parents.

Mensah: This influence, this independent business minded spirit of your father's, did any immediate member of the family sort of follow that?

Wilkerson: I think Maude, my sister is the one who had more of that in her. Because she had a store down on..near Seven Pine, Newbridge I think they called it. She operated the store there, she and her husband. And then she moved to Richmond and then she started this other store on 29th and uh, oh 29th and "T". And she kept it until her..until her health began to fail a bit, but she's always wanted to be independent.

Mensah: And this still oh, uh, can you put periods, uh, you know from the time she had her store in Richmond to oh, time she went into business until the time she got out? Generally.

Wilkerson: Uh, I think Maude kept that store around, I..I..I'm just guessing roughly, about 10 years. And she was well known in that community. "This is Maude's store!"

Mensah: I can remember that store being there, and uh, I think it was in the 50's at least. I was at Armstrong.

Wilkerson: I can well believe it was during that period. And she ran it alone.

Mensah: What uh, what school did you attend?

Wilkerson: George Mason.

Mensah: You went to George Mason?

Wilkerson: Yes. But I think I..I..I'm fuzzy on that one. I think it was referred to as East End, and they gave it a former name of George Mason somewhere during my early childhood. I'm not too sure. But I went to the original I mean the site where George Mason is now. But that new building wasn't there, just had a little funny square four room wooden building. I think it was torn down a few years ago.

Mensah: Yeah.

Wilkerson: Interesting enough when I started teaching I taught at that same little building. (Laughter) We had to start that school.

Mensah: You mentioned your childhood. Where..when were you born?

Wilkerson: Uh, January 16, 1903.

Mensah: 1903?

Wilkerson: Uh huh.

Mensah: Uh, and you..you went to school at George Mason and you mentioned it being called Eastend.

Wilkerson: Eastend.

Mensah: Uh, where was..was this the first school building you attended? Was it located at 9th and "O"?

Wilkerson: Yes. That was the first one I attended. And then later on when, I don't know when the year, but white children had been attending their own Eastend School down on 29th Street between uh, "S" and "T" Streets. And then uh, they gave the school to uh, our people, and they started having the 5th, 6th, and 7th grades you see. Everybody was so happy going to that uh, I guess was something just like a Junior High. And I remember the teachers there Rev. Bowler who was the pastor of Mount Olivet Church. Uh, there was a Miss Ann Augustus, a Miss Lucy Bolting, oo, and a Mr. Epps who had worked for the Price's. They were the four dignitaries who were there. And everyone

Mensah: And uh, what was Church Hill like when you were growing up. Uh, say your school years up through going into high school? What..what characterized (interuption by Mrs. Wilkerson).

Wilkerson: Interestingly enough, it was NOTHING like it is now! Uh, they were known as poorer people of the city. But they were good people. And you knew practically everyone in the community. Now I was always thought ... we lived at 1400 N. 30th Street, and duh, at that time they were always Sunday School teachers, Fourth Baptist, and duh, my mother didn't worry. I would go to that meeting at nigh at Fourth Baptist, she said come home. No one lived down there, but she said, "Walk in the middle of the street the dogs may bother you". But you never thought of people bothering you, because if there's a group on the corner they said, "Don't say that, a lady is passing." They respected women, and children, and especially older people. Uh attitudes were good and most of the people when I knew were poor. Just as I was. They have nothing, they had little. But they were respectable people. And uh, my father always insisted we must..you must own your own home. And most of the poor people tried to buy their own little house, and sometimes the lot was too narrow for anything but you tried to buy your house. And there is such a thing as a good girl, a bad girl. (laughter) Nothing was taken for granted. You respected other people that ... if Mrs. A saw you doing something wrong she let your mother know it. What you did, or he misbehaved in church, somebody in church would tell your parents what you did in church. Everybody felt responsible, I do believe from what I can remember, felt responsible for the other. There were not drugs and the gangs. I'm sure there were some people who were but it was not prevalent as you can observe it now.

Mensah: And after elementary school, you went on to high school?

Wilkerson: Uh huh. To Armstrong.

Mensah: You went to Armstrong?

Wilkerson: And we walked across the viaduct to the Old Armstrong School. Then it was at First and Leigh. And interestingly enough, when we learned..when the.. if it was found that you came from Church Hill, uh, you were considered poor and ignorant and not quite with it. And we knew it. And you had to work extra hard to hold your end down.

Mensah: So uh, at the time you were coming along, I would take it that Blacks from maybe Jackson Ward and other areas of the city considered themselves a step above (interuption from Mrs. Wilkerson)

Wilkerson: A little above Church Hill people. We were poor. And I guess its that ego.

Mensah: And you mentioned walking, uh ....

Wilkerson: Across the viaduct?

Mensah: All the way say, from 30th Street to Armstrong.

Wilkerson: Yeah! We thought nothing of it. And I remember when the viaduct was built and the first walking acr oss. I think paid a penny or two pennies or something at a little booth you had to pay to walk across. And we didn't have a penny or two and we walked under the viaduct and come up on the other side. And uh, the parents always told us don't go under because there was a bad house. They called it then a bad house. But under the viaduct the lady would entice you come in. But we knew all about that viaduct and I tell you something, think how foolish children were, still are. The trains would be crossing, you know how to cross Broad Street down where, uh, sometimes there would be long lines of trains. We would throw our books through the freight of...uh, the train ever stopped, freightcars- Uh, if we wanted to cross and the train was blocking us, we would throw our books through the open freightcar, crawl under the train to the other side. (Mensah laughs) And the conductors just laugh, they enjoyed it. I guess the train wouldn't be moving I think now what a dangerous thing it was. But I done it all the time. And sometimes we would walk..we would go up Leigh Street instead of crossing the viaduct the, you would walk up Leigh Street and a sort of back hill that ran beyond some back fences and that sort of thing. A little narrow place to get to Armstrong. But we got there (she laughs)

Mensah: You mentioned a bad house being under the viaduct. Was that the city jail?

Wilkerson: No, no, no it was a private home. And sometimes I can recall the lady's name who was the operator. Evidently now I guess you'll call that house of prostitutes. But then they called it the bad house. You ain't suppose to go anywhere near it (with laughter)

Mensah: And then after Armstrong, what did you do?

Wilkerson: Uh, of course, at that time when you finished Armstrong, if you wanted to teach you go to Normal. And Normal School was the old Monroe School, about it's opposite the .... opposite the second Armstrong. That old brick unding that had been an armory. And you go there for your teacher. Normal School that's what they called it. And then Normal School is equivalent to two years high school. And duh, the last year when Normal School wasn't there, you get sent back to do what was called practice teaching. And you'd be there with the older teachers. And duh, when you graduate you had two years of college you could take up extra work at Virginia Union or some place.

Mensah: A nd duh, then you went into teaching'!

Wilkerson: Uh huh.

Mensah: And your first school was George Mason?

Wilkerson: George Mason. Last one was George Mason.

Mensah: How was teaching , how did you enjoy it?

Wilkerson: It was nice. I was quite young there and I loved to teach. In fact, I loved it until I stopped, and when I stopped I didn't want to see anymore of it.

Mensah: Okay. You mentioned teaching and being happy at it duh, it sounds as though it was sometime around the depression maybe, or uh, there-about that you were probably teaching. Uh, what was that like?

Wilkerson: While ... Interestingly enough, I..I sincerely believe this. Uh, our people in that area, uh, as I said before were not..there were not too many well to do people. Perhaps a couple of doctors, and maybe one or two other families, but the average family was a poor family and they were accustomed to do what they had the nerve to do, do without, or make do. And I think we made do. Now for example when I was teaching, if um, we wanted to go to the Capital Square, I can go far as that. Once I wanted my children to have the privilege of going to the State Fair. And do you know we walked, with that big class from George Mason School all the way to the old fair ground. I forgotten exactly what location before they moved to where they are now. But I took my class, and I remember there was something special. I enjoyed walking with them across the viaduct and they enjoyed walking and holding each others hands. It was no bus, no nothing for transportation. Uh, in teaching we would have plays, there's no auditorium at George Mason. We would have a play in the classroom if you wanted one, or in the hall. And duh, I would just go out the way, I enjoyed working with the children. We had storytime, things, I am not bragging or anything, but I enjoyed doing those things with the children. And uh, they..a number of them and I still remember the good old days they have storytime, they'd put on their plays, go on the trips, and duh, the parents weren't even requested to write a note. You were ... the children was told to ask the mother could they go on..go to Broad Street to see Santa Claus or to watch something, and the mother said very well. It was just the trusting period I guess you would call it. And duh, I think it was during that time the school finally decided to give books to our children. For a long while our children had to buy books. Everything we needed. And when they started giving them books, I'm not sure what the exact date, uh, we never got new books at our school. They were always books that were handed down, because it would have a stamp from..it would be some other school always. And stamp each year when it go to another child, and then when the book got very old and beaten they would pass 'em on to our school.

Mensah: And when you say them you were saying the (interuption from Mrs. Wilkerson)-

Wilkerson: From the White schools to ours always. We did not receive any new books for years before we started getting new books.

Mensah: You mentioned something earlier about there not being any transportation, and where you referring to no school transportation or no transportation period?

Wilkerson: Well, I mean we didn't have any buses to take the children. If you wanted to take them on a trip, uh, you walked where you wanted to go. Uh, when I went to Armstrong, you walk! If you couldn't affort that nickle car far you walk! And when these children wanted to go on a trip, I know all of them couldn't get the money, many of them probably. And they, we just walked! Nobody worried.

Mensah: So you uh, characterizing what you've said, uh, the depression didn't necessarily have a great affect since most of the people were poor anyway and had learned to cope with..with (interuption by Mrs. Wilkerson)

Wilkerson: Yes, it had ...

Mensah: Being poor.

Wilkerson: And there were vic ... and most everybody had a victory garden. That's what they called it. And I don't remember hearing of anybody stealing anything from anybody's garden.

Mensah: Uh, you came on at a rather interesting time as far as our national history is concerned uh, there was the first World War, and duh, the depression, and then the second World War. Uh, are there any interesting facts or occurrences that you can relate uh, that happened in those neriods?

Wilkerson: Yes. Uh, we had the nerve to get married 1939?

Mensah: 1939?

Wilkerson: My husband was working in Baltimore at a school there. I was teaching and duh, we laugh about it, but I think it was the only way we made it. Uh, teachers were making about ... we had gotten a raise and I think we were getting about 55 or 60 dollars a month. I started at 45 dollars a month. And duh, the average poor teacher then would have to borrow from a loan company in June, enough money to be living through the summer. (Laughter) Then you start repaying that loan and pay on it all the year, so you be ready to redo it next June. That sort of thing. But with my husband working, when school close in Baltimore he'd come to Richmond; and believe it or not there wasn't..during..nobody had jobs. But he started selling things from door to door and I mean he always found something to do. There wasn't a week when he just sat and held his head. He'd go out and find something, cut somebody's grass or work families and he was so happy that he got a job working for a private family, 10 whole dollars a week. We were rich! (Laughter) Actually rich. (Laughter) So, through it all uh, we made it. It was rough but we say it had always been rough so we

Mensah: Do you remember uh, Hoover and duh, Roosevelt coming into offices and duh .....

Wilkerson: Yes, and I think ....

Mensah: Ending of the wars and so on?

Wilkerson: Well, we had I..I, we had moved from the house on 27th Street. Uh, we.. my husband, no my father bought this house on 25th Street. And then we started buying a house uh, on the corner of 30th and "T". 1400 N. 30th. And as soon as we started on that my father lost his house and with my 45 dollars a month I took over. And I saw the little bit my father uh, found it the other day uh, 5 dollars or a dollar or something, I want my baby child", he always referred to me as baby child because my mother was 46 when I was born, believe it or not. And he was quite old and so passive about it but anyhow he wanted me to have his house because I had to carry on for him. Uh, and then we moved to "M" Street. I'm getting to this Roosevelt situation. Uh, I wanted to live in a better or bigger house. This went on for some small. But the one on "M" Street happen to be a two ... be a two story brick house. It's still there, 2607 "M". And..but the going was very, very rough. And when Roosevelt came president he introduced all these different letters and stuff, WPA and all that sort of thing. And one of the things was HOLC, Home Owners Loan Corporation. And I was fortunate enough to get our house placed on the HOLC. The payments were lower and a longer period of time given on my little bitty self. And that saved our home on "M" Stteet. But I do remember that particular thing, and the people working had all sorts of letters there for them; workman something WPA and WPAW. Uh, all those things to help people who had problems but I distinctly remember HOLC. That saved my house.

Mensah: Uh, your father was with you when you moved on "M" Street?

Wilkerson: No, he died in 1939.

Mensah: 1939?

Wilkerson: Same year McQuire. My mother was on "M" Street. She died later?

Mensah: Uh, you uh, as I remember, were one of the favorite people at Fourth Baptist Church, particularly working with the..with the youth. Uh the Girl Scouts I believe, and (interuption by Mrs. Wilkerson)

Wilkerson: Junior Missionary, you name it you have it.

Mensah: Right. What..what, and what I'm getting at is that in addition to having taught uh, and the responsibilities that you had, you found time to share yourself with the church community. Urn, was it values that were instilled in you as a child to be a part of your church and so on, or just how did you get involved in the church and what was that like?

Wilkerson: Some say it, but I..I guess it's instilled in me. My mother al ... it was when we were youngsters, it wasn't a matter do you want to go to Sunday School or do you want to go to church, you knew automatically when Sunday came you were going to Sunday School. You knew you were going to BYP- Baptist Young People's Union. You knew you were going and there were no questions asked now. Believe it or not now I had this sister next to me she would question things. She's one of these progressive kinds, "Why must I go when everybody don't?", but I guess I was kind of backward. Mother said go, you just went and I enjoyed going, and I have always liked the people And duh then I enjoyed, I actually like the church work. I still like it. I'm an All Souls Presbyterian but I still like it. But I don't work with the young people. I don't understand them. I speak a different language. I don't dislike it, I still love it. But then um, we were allowed, I can remember at Fourth Baptist we asked permission to have youth committee. There have never been one and that youth committee was supposed to have fourth..to take care of services every fourth Sunday, and out of it there were always ideas. From that grew the idea of organizing Girl Scouts. And uh, well we took care of that. We started three troops, then the brownies, the intermediate, the seniors that sort of thing. And then the junior missionaries, they have been just the..just a group of a few little children they called it junior missionaries. But duh, through work ... and I left, we left 125 children on that junior missionary roll and attended all the meetings, all the conf... I don't remember the church giving us anything special. We were at that time, you could give trophies to raise your monly and Queen of May, and all that sort of thing. And it was..I don't think I did any that feeling it was my duty or I should. I just enjoyed doing it and I did it.

Mensah: Who was the pastor at ....

Wilkerson: Rev. Evans Payne batised me. And uh, then following Rev. Payne was Rev. Fendall Williams, and J.A. Brown followed him, Williams. But duh, I was 9 years old when I baptised. And I, (Laugh) this is not history but I remember the Sunday night that I was baptised and we were going home and my mother asked me, at that time you were supposed to have all sorts - of wonderful experiences so my mother said duh, "When you came up out of the water, I didn't see any look to you". I think she expected tosay I saw angels Lord. I told her I couldn't see much cause the water was in my eyes and everything looked green. (Mensah laughs) Mommy said, "Oh my Lord (Laughter) I've got to take you to Rev. Payne because he's baptised you and your sins". And don't you know before she took me home she took me to Rev. Payne's house to tell him what I had said. And duh, he said, "Sister Robinson, she's a little child. She has to grow and it is your duty and my duty to help her. She told the truth that's en..." I can almost see tht greenlooking water in my eyes now. My mother declared I had absolutely nothing. (Laugther) But that's the way it appeared to me.

Mensah: Rev. Payne sounds like he was uh, a very understanding man.

Wilkerson: He really was. You know I can think of a number of conversations we would have. Uh, he told me once uh, when I was 13, he told mother, he said, "I wanna tell your daughter something I told you I was gonna tell her when she got 13 years old." Momma said, "Don't tell her". But he said, "Daughter you come here". And he was sitting in the front of the church. Service was over. So he had me to stand between his knees he said, linow your mother was 46 years old when she found out she was gonna have ycu and she was some kind of undone. Said she didn't have a suitcase but she wrapped her clothes up in a newspaper and came to tell me she was gonna leave George Robinson." That was my daddy. He said, "Well George Robinson didn't do all of that by himself." (Laughter) And said, "That Child you're having, you're gonna have." Said, "She may grow up and have to be a husband to you and a mother to you, a daughter to you, may have to be your all in all. Your main support so you think about what you are about to do".

Mensah: Mrs. Wilkerson, there is something you don't hear a great deal about anymore in relationship to school children and young children, is Mayday Plays. Uh, could you tell us something about the Mayday Plays? What characterized them?

Wilkerson: Well, in public school uh, they were using May Day Plays. Why they would have it on the schoolyard. There would be a winding of the May Pole they called it. And occasionally there would be big .... one at Virginia Union and all the schools would send representatives up winding the May Pole, dance. The churches would have Queen of May. In fact, every church had a Queen of May. On a Monday night the tickets were 10cts or 15cts. You sell 10 you get in free (Laughter). Good money raiser (Laughter)

Mensah: What..what was it like uh, shopping in Church Hill? What stores come to mind? What kinds of, wha...things can you remember?

Wilkerson: Well, on practically every other corner there was a grocery store usually operated by Jews. Uh, all the poor families, most of the families, many of them, many of the poor families would carry a..what they called a book with this grocery. And if you didn't have the cash He would write in our greasy book, and we pay on the book at the end of the week. Of course, you couldn't even get the book to talley. If you have a one you have a talley. And there were few of our stores, uh, we had a few grown up stores. I remember Mr. Buck Pollard had one at 25th and "R". And he stayed there for years. There were few uh, a lot of few..a number of shoe repair shops on Church Hill. And..wha ... I also notice a Charles Burke. His daughter is Mrs. Burke Willis. She taugh at George Mason. He had a blacksmith's shop, uh, on "P" Street between 28th?..27th and 28th and he stayed there for ages doing all sorts of work. Collecting his , and this Mr. Sam Garnett had a printing shop at the corner of 28th and "P". Everybody had programs printed at Garnett's. And I remember one summer there was..was aaa ... gramatical error in the program. And someone asked about it. He said, "When you see them bringing these scrolls to me, I have to print it the way they..the way they bring it. They don't viant me to change anything." So, you say we does, he print, we does. (Laughter)

Mensah: He wasn't editing anything.

Wilkerson: And it wasn't edited, you bring it, he print it. That was his job. (with laughter). That, if you had any printing done, Sam Garnett did it. And then there were afew music teachers scattered around. And everybody who had extra they would send the child to take music lessons. And duh, my mother wanted all of us to know some music, so each of us as we got older now, would have one year of music. Graduate, she'd let you graduate. So the next child who take one year of music, so we..we..we all of us could pick out a note here and there. But she didn't invest on it and none of us were that talented, but we had gotten an ideal of music.

Mensah: Who was the music teacher? Do you

Wilkerson: Uh, Ms. Susie Dabney who had been the organist at Fourth Baptist for years. And then there's a professor somebody who lived on 28th Street. You had to have an extra nickle to take music, he had to charge us a little more than Miss Susie did.

Mensah: Ye ... that was an advanced (interuption by Mrs. Wilkerson)

Wilkerson: Yea..you..

Mensah: Classes, uh?

Wilkerson: Were really getting with it when you had him. (Mensah laughs). I never worked up to him. I just had Miss Susie, pay a dollar and a quarter a month first. All these classes. Because you didn't have any practice at home and you'd better remember when she called you. Oh now you asked about shopping, I gone off on music lessons. Uhhhh, uh, did I tell about Joe Hodes store at 29th and "Q" where most the poor peo ... well not the poor pe ... they shopped at Joe Hodes? And if you had an extra nickle you may go up to Strange. He had a department store at 25th and "Q", and I liked to go there because they had a thing..a system for paying. If you paid the clerk down here uh, she would make a receipt and put it in a basket, and someway pull a chain and that basket would shoot all the way across the store. Someone who received the money in a little something and I thought it was the most intriguing thing in the world to watch that basket shoot across the store carrying the money on some wires. And then if vou had two extra nickles you would shop on Main Street. Very few of the families shopped on Main Street. That's for rich people. And a lot of big department stores on Main Street.

Mensah: Was Powell Brothers one of those?

Wilkerson: Yeah Pow...I could..there.-Powell was down there. There were two or three of them. And that was the time you would go in the store to get good shoes for your child. They said what size does he wear? You'd tell them what size the child would wear, measuring your feet. Uh, "What kind of shoe do you want?". Urn, then you say, "Well, I want a patent leather shoe for my little girl." Then the clerk would say, "How much money do you have?" (Laughs) I say now you think about today you ask somebody how much money do you have (Mensah laughs). If you had a dollar and a quarter you'll get some one dollar shoes, a dollar and a quarter, it's that simple. But that shopping was ... there were little stores, little shops and all.

Mensah: You mentioned Joe Hodes..(interuption by Mrs. Wilkerson).

Wilkerson: Oh, there was an Eaton Store too. Another department store at 25th and "Q". That was dry good store up there.

Mensah: Uh, you mentioned Joe Hodes. I don't think we established were it was located.

Wilkerson: That was at the corner of 29th and "Q". Diagonal from the car lot.

Mensah: And this was a dry goods store?

Wilkerson: Oh yeah. That's what they called them, the dry goods store.

Mensah: And, you mentioned that a great many of the people shopped there.

Wilkerson: Definitely.

Mensah: Uh, what kinds of things did he sell, and on what occasions would you go to Joe Hodes?

Wilkerson: Your art goods, needles and pins with which everybody sewed by hand, thread, shoes, and I imagine they were outdated even when he carried them (laughter). And some dresses I think they were oh .... catalog type things. Just an old, it wasn't old fashion I guess it was just 9 but dry goods just things people would ordinarily need. Pins, and needles and and homemade things, halfway , shoes, shoes. These are black pair I wear and brown pair.

Mensah: And you mentioned the Car Barn..this a streetcar ... where the streetcars uh ......

Wilkerson: Yes.

Mensah: Were housed?

Wilkerson: Now I don't know if the city streetcars were there, but I do know the Seven Pines cars was there. And then twenty-nineth and "P" was a great "Q" Corner because Clay Street Car would come down to it and now would circle around that Corner on "P" Street, and would stop there on the "P" Street side. And that was interesting. And on 31st Street there was uh, oh what did they call that? Well anyhow there's a 30..31st uh, something, that car headed at the corner of 31st and "Q". It would come in and then this trolley line. We use to call it the Broad and a Quarter. That's what they called it. And then the car was..the streetcar had this sign on it, Broad and 25th Street. But the people referred to it as the Broad and a Quarter.

Mensah: Broad and a Quarter?

Wilkerson: Yeah! Broad and a Quarter. (laughter)

Mensah: Tha ... that's interesting because uh, like today uh, well not today but several years ago that was the expression called the Deuce and a Quail that referred to the Electra 225, and the way people thought of..take uh phrases or uh, numbers and sort of make slang out of it', uh, is quite interesting.

Wilkerson: Uh, now I tell you something about a..about the Clay Street Car and Fourth Baptist car. They run uh, the Clay Street Car as I said was at 29th and "P", and Fourth Baptist was famous for big revivals. And during that time revivals weren't conducted as they are now. They would have a seat set apart for the unsaved. They say that for the sinners. Alright, and then the folk would preach sing and everxthing. And if you felt you were saved you'd get up out of the seat and then you were suppose to run out of the church saying "Thank God, Thank God." And the faster you run the more religion you'll have. And when you (laughs) pass this place where the Clay Street Car stop the conductors would enjoy that thing you know. And then um... that say that then one of the children has saved they say "Here come another Nigger. (Laughter) They say (laughter) you knew we were having a big revival. They were just sitting on the car waiting for them to run .... (laughter). Those were saved. (laughter).

Mensah: Yo..segregation was, I suppose, a great part of your growing up.

Wilkerson: Yeah.

Mensah: And I guess much has been written and said about it. How do you view it as (cough) I'm sure there were bad experiences uh, but basically you seem like a happy, well adjusted person. So I'm..I guess I'm asking was it as bad as..as people make it out to be or was it something that you felt you were prepared to deal with, and this is why you are the way you are?

Wilkerson: Well, truthfully, people had different..of the well, one thing the word segregation didn't seem to enter too much. I guess we had been born in a time where uh, for example, I can remember distinctly, you would go to the store, you could be at..this is counter. You'd be at the counter ready to be waited on; a white person would be back of you and they'll reach over you and wait on the white person. You didn't like it, but you were not at the burning and fighting stage. You'd leave, roll your eyes, of course, they would wait on them first. That's.. on your car . And color folks suppose to sit in the back. So uh, and then you were taught at that time don't start anything, and with me it ... with me there was a difference with my sister. I had a sister who really resented it, certain things. Uh, declare let me give you an example. My mother, I always felt that she could take us up..take us to Broad to see Santa Claus and the pretty toys in the window. Now I enjoyed going but I knew those toys were not for me. They were for the rich children, didn't worry me. But the sister next to me resented it. And she always got mad when my mother would take her up there to see Santa Claus but the though she couldn't get it.

Mensah: She don't want to see what she couldn't have (with interuption at the same time)

Wilkerson: She didn't want..what she couldn't have. But it didn't so..what I'm saying is it affected different people different! Now I am at all Souls Presbyterian Church to clarify that, you know we have a mixed congregation and they' just people with me. It doesn't effect me at all. There are others who resent uh, the white people being in our congregation. So I don't know it may be just the way..just my particular feelings about things. I..I..I didn't carry..I'm not patting myself but that resentment and anger and hatred never seem to have entered my life. It may have been uh, because I was the youngest and my... all my sisters would always say my mother and daddy loved me more than they did them. And they would kiss me and hug me, they didn't care. When they have too many babies they didn't have time to hug all the children. (laughter) I had a lot of love showered on me and they showered love on me, so that may have been a part of it. But duh, as for the bitterness, and the segregation, I think I just lived along. And that's being quite truthful.

Mensah: How would you describe your..in your mind was Church Hill segregated and.. and of course, I know it was..but what I'm saying is was there much uh, interaction between races? Were there white friends that you considered close to your family or friends? Uh, just how....

Wilkerson: No. We never shared blocks where the white people lived. There were certain blocks were my people lived, and uh, you have communication if you worked for that family. That family would do anything for you and duh, I don't mean you set down to dinner with them, but I mean that if you had problems they would see to it that you were helped in your distress uh, that sort of thing. But..and about the only thing friction I do remember is a white boy who threw rocks at me. There would be the biggest ba...rock battles in history. And you were very quiet going through the neighborhood. And you know where Jefferson Avenue is? Uh, there some poor white people living down there, but you carried these big baskets of clothes, and most of us had to carry clothes, then you could depend on a group of those white boys throwing rocks at you before you can get over that lot. And we was very quiet going down that block so they wouldn't know you were passing so you could deliver those clothes and get safely back home. But duh, I don't remember the adults having problems, just the boys.

Mensah: Uh, you mentioned carrying clothes down Jefferson Avenue. Where in particular were you carrying clothes? Was it the other side of Broad Street?

Wilkerson: No. Poor white people I guess. They were as poor as we were. And duh, all over the white people lived in all those houses back in there where Cedar Street Church is. White people where there (interuption by Mensah)

Mensah: Union Hill I think they called that.

Wilkerson: Yeah. and the house we moved in on "M" Street, white people had just..white people were all in that area. And most of our people were, not ... lived back uh, uh, to the I say the that the north, west kinda corner but more

Mensah: As a section uh, called..was called Dog Bottom, uh (Interuption by Mrs. Wilkerson)

Wilkerson: Yeah. That was at 24th Street, Oh! I had forgotten Dog Bottom! Yeah.

Mensah: Uh, do you have any idea how far that stretch or was that basically just the 24th Street area?

Wilkerson: I think Dog Bottom was more uh, 24th, but our people, 24th it would have been about 24th , 23rd, but it stopped on 24th. And that was more of the Dog Bttom. Now I lived on 25th Street and they didn't call 25th Street Dog Bottom. And I'd forgotten what they call the Buchanan area. We looked down..the Church Hill people looked down on the people who lived down that Buchanan Street area. We felt ourselved above them. So we segregate ourselves a whole lot (she laughs)

Mensah: Uh, you mentioned uh that Blacks lived primarily in prescribed areas in Church Hill. Uh, in reading uh, Mary Wingfield Scott's book she mentions a section of Church Hill called Shedtown.

Wilkerson: That was around "P" Street.

Mensah: Are you familiar with that term, or...

Wilkerson: Yeah, I'm sure one of those Shedtown.

Mensah: Uh huh. Uh, are there any ...

Wilkerson: I hadn't thought of it in ages but I remember Shedtown.

Mensah: Uh, uh, are there any stories about Shedtown, or any things about Shedtown that you remember hearing as a child?

Wilkerson: Fourth Baptist is in Shedtown. And "P" Street was..that was the main street of Shedtown. Was the teenagers, oh..you..that's where we left off what we did on Sunday afternoons. Uh, uh, uh, "P" Street was in the main street of Shedtown. Teenagers would lock arms and walk up and down "P" Street.

Mensah: This was sort of a courting ritual?

Wilkerson: That was a courting ritual.

Mensah: Uh huh, uh huh.

Wilkerson: And you're a nice girl, you stayed within limits. You didn't stray around the corner, you just walked down "P" Street

Mensah: Uh huh, uh huh, uh huh.

Wilkerson: nd there was a store where all would like to hang out, Peter Nigro's. That was the store in the middle of the block opposite Fourth Baptist. If you had an extra two cents you could go to Nigro's and if the boy had an extra penny to treat you to an ice cream cone. You were..you were really with society, high society really.

Mensah: Peter Nigro?

Wilkerson: Peter Nigro. I think you spell it N-i-g-r-o. And then finally the Boisseau's moved next to that store and they bought the property next to that store. And they sold fish there for years.

Mensah: Yeah, I'm familiar with the Boisseau's.

Wilkerson: Well alright, that was..all that was the Shedtown area. And Dr. Wilder lived on the corner. He was a leading physician over there Remember Doug Wilder's old home As of doctor Walter Brown. That was society!

Mensah: Uh, you said Dr. Wilder, ah was this Dr. Wilder related to Doug Wilder (with interuption-...)

Wilkerson: Yeah, Doug Wilder. I think, ef... he was his grandfather, I think.

Mensah: Do you remember his first name?

Wilkerson: Ho ho ho. He was our family doctor for years. I remember he was driving around in a horse and buggy.

Mensah: Uh, and you ... you were saying that there were some prominent families that lived in that area...

Wilkerson: Yeah.

Mensah: Of..of a ....

Wilkerson: Let's see now there's Dr ... I may think of his name after while, but Dr. Walter Brown, ah Dr. not Turner ....

Mensah: Tancil?

Wilkerson: Tancil! Yeah the T-a-n-c-i-l. And he had lived at the corner of 27th and "M"...brought corner house further down. I knew that. But tuh, old physicians. Don't think they had any lawyers. And then when they, then they were outstanding family when they really got extra money. We started getting these homes on Leigh Street between 29th and 30th. Have you ever seen those stucco houses?

Mensah: Where Brown, uh yeah ...

Wilkerson: Yeah somebody else. That was..that was real society disturbance. (Mensah laughs) That was t ...that was society really. And everybody would pass by you to look at these new houses. We just built these houses. Brand new houses, big houses on Leigh Street. Sunday afternoon we dress so we can pass the big (laughs). And then for entertainment the People use to go walking out they call it, on Sunday afternoon. The mother, the father take the children for a walk. That was entertainment for Sunday afternoon. Didn't have no theaters. And uh, after you go to B.Y.P.U. be right here. You go there every Sunday afternoon. But duh, going walking had an extra maybe we'd go car riding. And you get on the old streetcar and ride it. Take you all around Westhampton, and you were really rich when you could go car riding. And take all the neighbors children, bare foot children (laughter) car riding, or walking..walking out.

Mensah: Uh huh.

Wilkerson: Or um, you may walk to the cemetary. That was a great experience. Walking all the anytime that the mother went out or father would always take the neighbors' children. Someone say the woman you say walking she would have 8 or 10 or 12 or 15 children.

Mensah: You mentioned walking to the cemetary. Once you got there what did you do? Just look uh .... (interuption)

Wilkerson: Have a good time. The children would play and run between the graves and run down the hillside. The scariest experience I had was running down that hill at oak ... down that old ... that old Evergreen Cemetary. I did not know that he had started running he couldn't stop. And I started running down that hill and screamed like a ... almost here myself screaming now. (laughter) But tuh, we just walked through the cemetary and say "This is where Uncle John was buried", and"so and so "'was buried and duh, it was great entertainment. Didn't have anything else to do that was big A. I..it was just simple fun. Oh! And then the neighborhoods would have neighborhood lawn parties. They didn't call 'em block parties. And the city would allow you to close off the block. And then all these paper..why they didn't burn the houses down I don't know. Have all these paper. Than there would be trip around the world. That's entertainment they had. Trip around the world when ah, go to your house and we gather up a little heaping of potato salad, come to my house I'd give her something. Nobody interfarred with them. And they would go from what folks say as "from house to house" (laughter) and collect here and a little of there. Now that is a that really type entertainment.

Mensah: Right, but that sounds like a very neighborly, friendly .....

Wilkerson: It was.

Mensah: And growing up in this atmosphere, uh, I can see uh, where one would feel secure uh, for the most part, uh, and feel loved uh.

Wilkerson: Yeah. And you didn't worry about locking your door if you're were going down..the expression was just "Be sure pull the door to" and you pull it to I., to keep the chickens from walking in the house while you were out. Cause everyone had some chickens in the backyard. But duh, you - didn't bother to lock the door and they call it put the window down it may rain. But you didn't. My father was the treasurer of Mount Tabor Church, Woodville at that time. And uh, he was a little short man, and would go up and collect that money and he didn't worry he would come with that money any hour of the night, and come through fields and then once in a while he'd say "Baby child you want to go with me?" just for company. And I was a little bitty thing now you know how much protection I'd be. And he never seemed fearful of anyone

Mensah: Woodville was a prominent uh, area for blacks?

Wilkerson: It really was.

Mensah: Can you describe that at all?

Wilkerson: Now my older sisters and brothers uh, you know grew up there. And duh, most everybody up there was older than me. And I don't want.. it seems they were not quite as top of... bottom of the totem pole at Church Hill. But duh, that was a close knit community. And they.. everybody knew everybody. My father was trustee of the church for quite a while and he was treasurer cause he was churchman. But duh, they weren't ... they were really (interuption by Mensah)

Mensah: Do you recall who the pastor was at Woodville?

Wilkerson: Rev. Bass, B-a-s-s Bass. Yeah he was pastor even when they weren't calling them pastors. Mount Tabor Church was a little white frame church. They started building a housing development there. Thats when they came over to Fairmount, where McCall's church is now.

Mensah: Well now, that's quite interesting uh, what you've described as being Church Hill and developing that uh ... gives one the impression that you know though things were tough as far as economics were concerned, that basically the people were...were uh, hard working, uh, striving for something, uh, the idea of home ownership, the idea of being trustworthy, the idea of being good girls ....

Wilkerson: That's it.

Mensah: Basically it seems that the..the people if we could characterize them had very middle class values ...

Wilkerson: They really did.

Mensah: Even though they may not have economically uh, been considered middle class, their values had seemingly uh, towards middle classness ....

Wilkerson: I..I really think that.

Mensah: Are there other things that you, and when I say that you feel, I am saying that all of what you've said has significance per say, characterize a period of time that very little has been written about as far as blacks are concerned. Uh, are there other facts that uh, occurences that come to mind?

Wilkerson: Uh, uh, You think churches had a greater influence on people then for itself. You know that . I said churches, while I had better ministers. They were respected and even officers of the church, the deacon "so and so" and deacon "so and so". You kind of looked up to them and respected them. And duh, there's something else that has taken place in the city. Everybody use to go to church every Sunday to see what Reverend "so and so" was going to say. A nd uh, pastor now. Uh, oh that use to be a great exursion. You look forward to the summer. See, Mount Olivet was gonna run an excursion somewhere or Fourth Baptist was gonna run an excursion. Some club is gonna have...you would hardly go to the club unless you ... unless you You're a ga.. you're a bad guy, you are nice church excursion, but the people settle it with fight, but fight on these other trains, all over the train (laughter). Then there's another thing that I remember distinctly, when uh, before they built the new school at , I don't know what cha' call it, ah, those children were after these sixth graders come to George Mason in the eastend.

Mensah: Was that Webster Davis?

Wilkerson: Webster Davis! Yeah. They'll send those sixth graders and duh, for a while we though we were better, but poor. See we just stuck...so we got a real segregation within ourselves.

Mensah: Right. So basically what you're saying is sort of each neighborhood sort of felt a little bit better than sonie other neighborhood, you know.

Wilkerson: Definately! Yeah.

Mensah: So it seems like its sort of natural with people to try to find somebody that they are a little better than, or feel .....

Wilkerson: Uh huh.

Mensah: That they are. And..and I guess some of that is..is pride uh, within yourself about your neighborhood, about your people ...

Wilkerson: I think so...

Mensah: About your friends. Urn...

Wilkerson: If you want to start a riot, uh, you interfer with somebody from South Richmond and they were Danish you see. They gonna stick together. You get one, you got all of them on your back. (laughter) You know, I had thought of a number of these things for a long time but there are so many things you just..you know. And of course, there were..all the streets were just dirt sidewalks. But you had to sweep those dirt sidewalks everyday. And you'd know it, "Sugar sweep off the sidewalk". Ain't nothing out there but plain, hard dirt. And when you got your sweeping it was just like this, but just as clean you sweep ... you'll sweep your front yard, back, little lawn. When you got an extra dollar you may be able to get on May Rose that bloomed in May and that was it (laughs). That's about all you see good. Somebody may have them sunflowers grow back of the yard. Somebody asked if I remembered when you would sweep the backyard. I said I remembered I said, "What ever became of the old barbed wire that you have and the tin cans?" They say, "You'd always put that in the corner. The barb wire over top of it and then a honesuckle vine grow up behind the whole thing, and when you're playing you're reminded not to fall into the barbwire (laughter). And those are funny things. And then his eyes lit up because uh ....

Mensah: This sort of was like a fence? Uh, the barbwire?

Wilkerson: You..they can take anything to make a fence you know. Any board you can find and nail it up and makes you a fence. And then sometimes somebody would pass us up a good piece of barbwire. At that time you're allowed to nail the barbwire on top of this fence, to protect yourself. But if it wasn't long enough you'll roll it out, and put it in the corner of your yard, and duh, it have a can or something you'd know what to do with it. You'd throw it in that little place and eventually honeysuckles would cover the whole thing, and you would have honeysuckles in the corner of your backyard to cover the barbwire (laughs) But duh, (disturbance in the rest of tape, only a few more minutes.) [End of transcript.]

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