[This interview was conducted at the Brownlee residence. Preliminary material such as the reading of the Statement of Purpose was conducted off-tape. Ed.]
Interviewer: This is an interview with Thomas and Beverly Brownlee. It's March 22, 1992, and we'll be exploring the educational backgrounds of Beverly and Thomas Brownlee and their experiences over their school years. Now, we'll get some introductory biographical information. Mr. Brownlee, will you please state your full name?
Mr. Brownlee: Thomas Brownlee, Jr.
Interviewer: Okay, and the date you were born?
Mr. Brownlee: [1946].
Interviewer: And the place where you were born?
Mr. Brownlee: Richmond, Virginia.
Interviewer: Okay. And your father's occupation?
Mr. Brownlee: He's retired. He was a cleaner manager.
Interviewer: What did your mother do?
Mr. Brownlee: Basically, a housewife.
Interviewer: Do you have any brothers?
Mr. Brownlee: One brother.
Interviewer: And sisters?
Mr. Brownlee: Two sisters.
Interviewer: Did you go to kindergarten?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: Where did you attend elementary school?
Mr. Brownlee: Baker Elementary.
Interviewer: And was there a separate middle school and high school?
Mr. Brownlee: No.
Interviewer: Just one school to cover both of those?
Mr. Brownlee: One school in all to junior high school.
Interviewer: And what was the name of that school?
Mr. Brownlee: The elementary school was Baker Elementary
Interviewer: And the middle or junior high school?
Mr. Brownlee: East End Junior High.
Interviewer: And did you attend college?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: Where did you go to college?.
Mr. Brownlee: I had courses at VCU and at Virginia Union University.
Interviewer: Alright.
Mr. Brownlee: You got to go back a little bit there...
Interviewer: Okay, what high school did you go to?
Mr. Brownlee: Armstrong High.
Interviewer: Did you earn any degree at VCU or VUU?
Mr. Brownlee: No.
Interviewer: How about your current occupation?
Mr. Brownlee: [Inaudible] operator, Reynolds Metals Company.
Interviewer: Did you do anything before that, before you started that job?
Mr. Brownlee: Armed Forces.
Interviewer: And how about your religious affiliation?
Mr. Brownlee: Baptist.
Interviewer: Do you have any children?
Mr. Brownlee: Three.
Interviewer: How many boys?
Mr. Brownlee: Two boys, one girl.
Interviewer: Any grandchildren [laughs]? No?
Mr. Brownlee: Not yet. Better not [laughs]!
Interviewer: And could you give your current address?
Mr. Brownlee: [Richmond, Virginia].
Intdrviewer: Did you live anywhere else before you moved here?
Mr. Brownlee: [edit].
Interviewer: But that's still in Richmond?
Mr. Brownlee: That's in Richmond, yes.
Interviewer: Now, Mrs. Brownlee. Could you please state your full name?
Mrs. Brownlee: Beverly Ann Elizabeth Graham Brownlee [laughs].
Interviewer: When were you born?
Mrs. Brownlee: [1947].
Interviewer: And where?
Mrs. Brownlee: In Richmond, St. Phillips.
Interviewer: And what was your father's occupation.
Mrs. Brownlee: My father delivered medicine by motorcycle for a drug store.
Interviewer: And your mother's occupation?
Mrs. Brownlee: She was basically a housewife. She did some domestic work, some work in a laundry.
Interviewer: Did you have any brothers or sisters?
Mrs. Brownlee: No.
Interviewer: An only child?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: Did you attend kindergarten?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: And what was the name of your elementary school?
Mrs. Brownlee: Blackwell.
Interviewer: And your junior high?
Mrs. Brownlee: Blackwell.
Interviewer: And your high school?
Mrs. Brownlee: Armstrong.
Interviewer: Did you attend college?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: And where ... ?
Mrs. Brownlee: Virginia State.
Interviewer: Did you earn a degree from there?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: What degree?
Mrs. Brownlee: Bachelor of Science in Psychology.
Interviewer: And what is your current occupation?
Mrs. Brownlee: Employment counsellor with a program for senior citizens.
Interviewer: Okay, that's all the biographical information. Now, I'd like to talk a little bit about each of your experiences in elementary school, so I'll start with you first, Mr. Brownlee. You went to Baker Elementary school? In approximately what year did you go? Just a rough estimate.
Mr. Brownlee: 1952 or 53.
Interviewer: Was this a school just for blacks?
Mr. Brownlee: It was predominantly black, yes.
Interviewer: How did you get to school?
Mr. Brownlee: Walked. It was in walking distance.
Interviewer: It wasn't very far?
Mr. Brownlee: No.
Interviewer: What was the building like? Was it a new building?
Mr. Brownlee: No, it was very used, I guess, before my time.
Interviewer: Did you have a cafeteria?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: And a library?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: So it was like any normal elementary school today?
Mr. Brownlee: Exactly.
Interviewer: How about the resources available to you. Did you have any new books, new or used books?
Mr. Brownlee: During that time, I guess all the kids thought they were new, but as far as updating information, it was beyond our means of knowing. I guess the books were fairly new to us.
Interviewer: Did you feel like you were getting all the equipment you needed?
Mr. Brownlee: Only at the time, yes.
Interviewer: How about the size of your classes, did you have really large classes?
Mr. Brownlee: No. I'd say from 15 to 18 kids per class.
Interviewer: And you had just one teacher? You didn't switch?
Mr. Brownlee: We stayed in one classroom, but there were different teachers.
Interviewer: For different subjects?
Mr. Brownlee: Different subjects, yes.
Interviewer: What about your teachers, did you have black or white teachers?
Mr. Brownlee: Black.
Interviewer: They were all black teachers?
Mr. Brownlee: Except some in foreign language.
Interviewer: Did you have black or white administrators or principals, like the principal in your elementary school?
Mr. Brownlee: Black.
Interviewer: What influence did your family and the community have on your outlook about school? How did they emphasize it? Did they tell you while your were growing up that it was very important?
Mr. Brownlee: Oh, yes. That's really what they drilled on. They knew the importance. As far as myself, I always liked school. I didn't have any problems.
Interviewer: So they really emphasized that you should study hard?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: And achieve as much as you could?
Mr. Brownlee: Right.
Interviewer: How about your teachers? How did you feel about their attitudes toward education? Did they also give you a lot of support?
Mr. Brownlee: Sure. They were dedicated teachers.
Interviewer: And they worked a lot with you?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: Did they instill any pride in you? You said it was predominantly a black school and you had mostly black teachers. Did they give you any sense of a cultural identity?
Mr. Brownlee: Oh, sure. I felt they were close-knit. We talked everyday. During the time I guess they wanted to see your main interests, what you wanted to do, and they showed you all the avenues, where to go, how to go in achieving what you want. It really wasn't difficult. Really, everybody loved everybody and was really interested in exactly what you want and try to achieve that.
Interviewer: So it was a very warm and supportive atmosphere in school?
Mr. Brownlee: Sure.
Interviewer: How about your classmates, how were they like you? Did everybody share the same attitudes. Or their family experience, was it similar, did you feel?
Mr. Brownlee: I feel that it was, yes. During some time of school we got in different groups, and during the time that helped share ideas [such as] what they wanted to do or where they wanted to go at the time. They were interested. I think as a whole everybody in school was [interested].
Interviewer: Did you ever have any playmates or classmates of another race?
Mr. Brownlee: During elementary? No.
Interviewer: Did you ever come in contact with anyone from another race or were you taught about other cultures or other... ?
Mr. Brownlee: Well, yes. Let me go back. Where I lived was a predominantly black neighborhood, but outside of the neighborhood I had contact [or] came across the other race. As far as up until the latter part of high school, it was more involvement than the earlier years. So, based up until that time, no, mostly black.
Interviewer: How did you feel about the separateness you saw? Did you feel any resentment?
Mr. Brownlee: Well, sometimes it made you curious. It was, like, offset. You felt, are you getting everything you should get? That was as far as school and society. During the time I came up, it was Jim Crow laws, [with] certain places I could go and certain places I couldn't go. So, most blacks were really curious why they couldn't go to certain places, and they were a human being. Yes, it was an impact [but] you learn to deal with it.
Interviewer: But you were definitely aware of it from a very early age?
Mr. Brownlee: Oh yes, most definitely, yes.
Interviewer: Did you ever speak with your parents about these kinds of things? Did they try to explain to you what the situation was?
Mr. Brownlee: Well, they did. Again, there were certain places they couldn't go, so I very well understood that. Such things as lunch counters, movies. You know, it was there. It wasn't anything that was concealed. Most blacks in my generation, like I said, they learned how to deal with it, and after integration it was a turnaround. These blacks that couldn't go to these different places, they went. I thought it was a common good after I got older. You had all your black businesses where all blacks went to black businesses, and during the early sixties when it was integrated, then you had blacks going into white places of business. And, therefore, the black businesses fell down.
Interviewer: They didn't have the support?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: How about when you were in school? Did your teachers emphasize black history or famous black Americans?
Mr. Brownlee: Oh, sure.
Interviewer: So they gave a lot of information about... ?
Mr. Brownlee: Oh sure, yeah.
Interviewer: And did they encourage you to strive to achieve the same kinds of ... ?
Mr. Brownlee: Well, I would say that they emphasized a lot of blacks, and they were like role models. I guess, more or less, for you to differentiate where you placed in society, it was real broad. I felt that they highlighted the most significant points.
Interviewer: Now, you said that you went to East End Junior High?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: Approximately when did you go there? You don't have to give an exact date.
Mr. Brownlee: 1960.
Interviewer: How was that different from your elementary school experience? Did you notice any significant differences?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes. I can say that it was more classes, that when you got into your different electives like electronics, woodwork, which I didn't have in elementary school, it was somewhat different.
Interviewer: How did you get to junior high? Did you walk?
Mr. Brownlee: No, [I took] a bus.
Interviewer: Was it really far away from where you were living?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: About how far? How long did it take you normally to get there in a day?
Mr. Brownlee: About 35 to 40 minutes.
Interviewer: Were there other middle schools or junior high schools that were closer to you that you could have gone to?
Mr. Brownlee: Sure.
Interviewer: But you were bused..
Mr. Brownlee: I was bused, yes. All my life.
Interviewer: An all-black school? You said you took a bus to get to East End. Was this a public bus?
Mr. Brownlee: A public bus.
Interviewer: So you had to pay to ride. There was no transportation provided for you to get to ... ?
Mr. Brownlee: No city transportation, no.
Interviewer: And you did say that there were other junior high schools closer to you that you, technically, could have gone to, but you had to ride the city bus to get to East End?
Mr. Brownlee: Right.
Interviewer: What was that building like? Was that a new building?
Mr. Brownlee: No, not new. I'd say about average.
Interviewer: So it had a cafeteria and a library?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes. Cafeteria, library, different shops, [and] of course, your regular class rooms.
Interviewer: So you did have an assortment of resources available to you in those classes for learning woodworking? Did you feel like the school provided all the tools that were necessary to learn those trades?
Mr. Brownlee: Oh, yes.
Interviewer: Did you feel in any way that you weren't receiving all that you should?
Mr. Brownlee: I felt that I was receiving the requirements.
Interviewer: How about your teachers when you were at East End, were they all black still or did you have any white teachers?
Mr. Brownlee: Black.
Interviewer: And your administrators?
Mr. Brownlee: Black.
Interviewer: How about your classmates? It was still...?
Mr. Brownlee: Black.
Interviewer: Did you feel like you still got the same support from your teachers at this level of school? Did they still encourage you to study?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes. It was a little "up-tempo" then, [but] I still felt the same way.
Interviewer: Were you involved in any activities, like after school activities, while you were in junior high school?
Mr. Brownlee: Track, baseball.
Interviewer: Is there anything else you can think of that I may have missed that you feel is important about your elementary school or your junior high school experience?
Mr. Brownlee: No, not really.
Interviewer: Now East End Junior High School had formerly been an all white ... ?
Mr. Brownlee: White school.
Interviewer: And the neighborhoods surrounding it were predominantly white?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: And then, what happened to cause such a change?
Mr. Brownlee: Well, the whites were moving out and there were blacks coming in, and later on it turned into a predominantly black school. There weren't any other whites in the area.
Interviewer: And were they building newer, more updated schools for the whites where they were moving?
Mr. Brownlee: I'm pretty sure, then it was. There was a need for it.
Interviewer: Because there were no schools out there where they were moving?
Mr. Brownlee: Exactly.
Interviewer: So then, you and your neighborhood community filled the spaces they had left behind when they moved?
Mr. Brownlee: Sure, yes.
Interviewer: Now, Mrs. Brownlee, I'll ask you the same kind of questions about your elementary experience. Now where did you go to elementary school?
Mrs. Brownlee: I attended Blackwell Elementary.
Interviewer: And approximately what year did you start school?
Mrs. Brownlee: I was born in the latter part of the year and during that time you could start school in either September or January. And by my birthday coming at the end of the year, I started, it must have been January of 1953, and we went in shifts. Half of the kids went from 8:30 to 12:00, and then another shift went from 12 to whatever time we got out, 3 or 3:30.
Interviewer: Why did they need to be sent in shifts?
Mrs. Brownlee: Because it was that many children. Baby boomers and lots of children and all of the children in Southside went to Blackwell Elementary, all of the black children, and it was just so many of us. They couldn't accommodate everybody all day.
Interviewer: Did you feel that you were being cheated in any way because you couldn't go to school full days?
Mrs. Brownlee: Well, I was 5 years old and, well ... not in kindergarten [laughs]. I remember being in elementary school, begging teachers to let us bring books home. We couldn't do that. And I wanted to show my mother, "Yeah, I can read. This is the kind of book we have." Books weren't permitted to come home because they needed them for other classes or there weren't that many and a lot of times we shared books.
Interviewer: How did you get to Blackwell?
Mrs. Brownlee: My classmate, John, and I walked together and parents walked us when we were smaller to school. And then someone would be there in the evening to meet you and bring you home.
Interviewer: You said this was the one school for all the children in Southside. You walked. Is that because you were fortunate enough to live that close to the school? Did everybody walk?
Mrs. Brownlee: That I remember, most of the people did walk. I must have lived about 8 or 9 blocks from school and I don't remember many people riding when they didn't have buses to bring you to school. Most of us walked, and after we got older, then we walked in groups.
Interviewer: As opposed to with your parents?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: Well, what was the building like? Was it an older building?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes. It was an older building because my mother had gone to Blackwell. It was an older building, and then they built a new addition to it. I don't know when the new addition was built, but the newer part was there. The older students went to the older part. I think they might have started in 2nd grade going to the older part of the building. But the offices, the cafeteria were all in the newer part and the lower grades were in the ndwer part of that building. But it wasn't brand new when I went, but it was new compared to the older building when my parents, and, I don't know if my grandmother went to that school or not.
Interviewer: How about the resources available to you? You said there weren't enough books to go around?
Mrs. Brownlee: There were not enough books. We shared books. We did not bring them home. Not until we got in, maybe 4th to 6th grade, I remember bringing books home. But not much before that we did have a library and I don't remember bringing books home from the library either. Not in those first few years. We did have a library, we had a cafeteria. And the interesting thing about our cafeteria was our principal believed in listening to classical music, so we learned to appreciate all types of music. And during lunch we had those records playing. It was pretty nice.
Interviewer: How about your class size? Did you have large classes?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes. I'm trying to think how many. It seems like our classes were extra large. As I mentioned before, in kindergarten we had half day. It seems like there were at least 30 plus in our classes.
Interviewer: For one teacher?
Mrs. Brownlee: For one teacher. other than for resources. We had an art teacher for resources. In third grade we had foreign language and we had a teacher to come in for that. And music, I think must have been sixth grade, where there was a band.
Interviewer: What foreign languages did they teach?
Mrs. Brownlee: In Southside they only offered Spanish, and you started taking it in third grade.
Interviewer: Was that a weekly ... ?
Mrs. Brownlee: I think twice a week.
Interviewer: What influence did your family or your community have on your outlook about school? When you started school, did your family really stress the importance of your education?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes. In fact it was one of the most important things, education. I had an uncle who taught me my ABC's and numbers on a little blackboard before I went to school, so I was ready when I got there. And, I remember, my mother [said] to just read everything you can get your hands on. Just read. It felt like education was the thing to. That was just one of the most important things that was the key to having a successful life. Education was real important.
Interviewer: How about your teachers. Did you have all black teachers?
Mrs. Brownlee: All black, yes.
Interviewer: And were they as supportive as your family?
Mrs. Brownlee: Very supportive, yes. I always thought that we had some of the best teachers. Back then, if you completed college you either taught school or you preached. We probably had teachers who were qualified to be scientists and business accountants, and those opportunities weren't open to teachers. Therefore, we had people who not only taught you, but they were great motivators. They were well versed in whatever subject they were teaching and they gave you those extras, extra projects and that type of thing.
Interviewer: So they really supported you and gave you a lot of hope for your future? They wanted you to do well and achieve as much as you possible could?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes. I was in advanced placement classes and not only was it teachers, but it was the other students and everybody wanted to keep up. You were almost fanatical about it. You know, you've got to achieve. This is the school, it is the thing, you've got to go. You had to go every day. Especially when we got to junior high and they would give out certificates if you didn't miss a day and that type of thing. And we competed with each other, we were supportive of each other. We did lots of work together.
Interviewer: So it was a very major part of your life?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: When you were in elementary school, did you have black or white administrators? Was your principal ... ?
Mrs. Brownlee: We had black administrators in school.
Interviewer: Did you ever have any playmates of another race during elementary school?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes. Southside was divided into "uptown" and "downtown". When we moved, and I lived downtown, that was an area where whites were moving out. And there were some, I think it must have been one family, who had not moved during the time that we lived there. And we played for a while until they moved. But our parents cautioned us that that just was not going to be thing that you could do, because if something were to happen, then you would be blamed for it. We played for a while, they moved, but still we were cautioned not to do that. And it just seems like in Southside, like a divider line, Hull Street was that dividing line. The shops and things were on Hull Street. Blacks stayed on one side, whites on the other, and there just was not that much mixing.
Interviewer: Did that affect you as a small child? How do you remember feeling about that when,your parents told you to be careful about playing, whth those white children?
Mrs. Brownlee: Well, really, when we played we hadn't had any problems. But you then you listened to your parents. They knew better, you listened, and so we didn't really have a problem. They moved.
Interviewer: So you don't know how it would have turned out if they had stayed there?
Mrs. Brownlee: No.
Interviewer: It was such a short period of time that you played?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes. And like I said, that dividing line and the two races just did not mix.
Interviewer: So it was not accepted but it was just the normal? You just grew up with it being that way so did it feel strange or...?
Mrs. Brownlee: No. We knew they were there. We knew that education was one way of competing. We felt like you had to work exceptionally hard no matter what you did, you had to do it that much better because you were black, and to be prepared for the world in which you were going to grow up in you had to know as much as you can, you had to do as well as you can, you had to behave better. You just had to be better.
Interviewer: So the standards were much higher for you?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes. Whatever you did you had to be better.
Interviewer: Now, you said you also went to Blackwell Junior High School or was that the same as the elementary school--was it still all one building?
Mrs. Brownlee: One building adjacent to.... there was an old building and a newer building and they were together... --I'm trying to think how that worked. It was all one building divided off into sections.
Interviewer: What grade level did this go up to?
Mrs. Brownlee: Junior High was 7th, 8th and 9th. Elementary was kindergarten through 6th grade.
Interviewer: Now how was your experience in 7th, 8th and 9th grade different from your earlier years of school. Did you notice any difference?
Mrs. Brownlee: Well, essentially there were the same children in our classes and we just went on with a little bit more responsibility. We changed classes. We had 6 classes, I think it was then. Other than it being a time of growing up, not really. What else do you mean ... ?
Interviewer: Well, you said you were in some advance placement classes. Was that only in the upper grades -- in the higher grades?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: Was everybody grouped according to their ability or were just the more advanced students ... ?
Mrs. Brownlee: I think everybody was, yes.
Interviewer: What do you think could have contributed to this kind of grouping? Do you think it was parental support during early years, or the encouragement?
Mrs. Brownlee: I am sure that had a lot to do with it. You know, I don't know. We had tests that we took at the end of the year. We had, I guess, motivation had something to do with it. I don't know. I don't think that differences were made in students. It's just that if you were a certain level, then you were given different types of classes. Some persons had... whatever your interests and abilities, I think. During that time they stressed math and science. Those were going to be the jobs of the future. And if you did pretty well in math and science, then you got to take the advance placement class.
Interviewer: So did you feel like they were. giving each individual student a lot of special attention according to their needs--their individual educational needs?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: And those who were more advanced were being challenged?
Mrs. Brownlee: In math and science, yes. I think special emphasis was placed on the math and science more so than the other subjects. But when you came out of Blackwell, you just had a good education. You had a good, solid background. In English, math, science, it was expected. That what you did. You went to school, you did well.
Interviewer: How about any activities in the 7th, 8th and 9th grade? Did they have any after-school activities you could be involved in?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes, we had clubs and we had a dramatics club. I remember being in that [and] not doing very well, but I was in there. My girlfriends were in there, so was I [laughs]. I think they had science clubs and maybe a Spanish club. Yeah, we did had activities. And then my whole homeroom for junior high school had a club, and all of us were in it and we had a couple of teachers who were sponsors for that. That was for weekends for parties and that type of thing.
Interviewer: So your school atmosphere was very community oriented? Did you have a strong sense of bonding with the other students?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes. We would have sessions at our club meetings where we would sit down and we would take one person one by one and point out all their good points and all of their faults [laughs]. And we had parties for socialization and we had a pretty good life then.
Interviewer: So overall, it was a good experience for you?
Mrs. Brownlee: I think so.
Interviewer: Is there anything that I missed that you can think of that is important, that you feel should be made known?
Mrs. Brownlee: I was interested in science, and I was thinking the other day about science equipment. I remember we were doing a project where we had to go read an instrument for the barometric pressure, and we didn't have labs like they do now. A lab was but a storage room, and if you were going to read this equipment, you had to go in the storage room where all the bugs or whatever was set up and this piece of equipment was just there. It was good experience, our teachers were interested, they encouraged you to attend church, they encouraged you to have good social values, to be the very best you could. It was not like we were going to frow up in a world that was segregated, say with black and whites, and when you're an adult and you have to mix, then you realize some of the things that you missed when you were growing up just in relating to people of different races and things. It makes a difference.
Interviewer: Because you weren't forced to interact as small children, it was harder as you got older?
Mrs. Brownlee: I think so, yes. Especially now. We moved in our neighborhood that's integrated and there is not any type of socialization. You just don't know how to relate to people of different races, and it makes a difference.
Interviewer: Okay, Mr. Browning, I would like to ask you about your high school experience. You said you went to Armstrong High School?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: What grade did you begin?
Mr. Brownlee: Ninth.
Interviewer: Again, can you give me an approximate date?
Mr. Brownlee: 1961.
Interviewer: How did you get to Armstrong High School?
Mr. Brownlee: Public transportation.
Interviewer: So again you had to buy your own bus tickets?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: There was no bus provided for you?
Mr. Brownlee: No.
Interviewer: And about how long did it take you to get from your house to Armstrong?
Mr. Brownlee: About thirty minutes, approximately.
Interviewer: Was that the closest high school to you or did you pass several other high schools on the way?
Mr. Brownlee: Not exactly pass, but I was centralized, and it was a high school closer. I [think] the old John Marshall High School right off of Marshall Street where the new courts buildings are there. I think it would have took me less time.
Interviewer: To get to John Marshall that it would have to get to Armstrong?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: Was Armstrong still an all black school?
Mr. Brownlee: All black, yes.
Interviewer: How were the building conditions there? Was this a newer building or ... ?
Mr. Brownlee: Well, they built the building new.
Interviewer: For the black students?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes, for the blacks. It was built new. I guest it was during the time they were mostly updating. You had your three floors. So, it was okay-
Interviewer: And you had a library... ?
Mr. Brownlee: Library...
Interviewer: Cafeteria, all the normal ... ?
Mr. Brownlee: Cafeteria, yeah....
Interviewer: Things you'd find in a high school today?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: How about the teachers? Were they still all black teachers?
Mr. Brownlee: Predominantly, yes.
Interviewer: And, the administrators, like your principal?
Mr. Brownlee: Black.
Interviewer: And you had no white classmates in any of your classes?
Mr. Brownlee: No.
Interviewer: Were you aware of any ability grouping when you were in high school? Did they direct you towards college preparatory classes or vocational classes?
Mr. Brownlee: Oh, yes. Again, it was according to your abilities at the time. You had your business courses, your college preparatory courses, and of course your general subjects. And what you felt maybe during testing that you were interested in, you went into one of those three categories. So, it was very well prepared.
Interviewer: Which track did you decide to take?
Mr. Brownlee: Well, college preparatory, but later on I liked business.
Interviewer: So you could have gotten a little bit of both?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: Did you get to study all the subjects you wanted to?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: If you were interested in something, there was enough room for you to take all the classes you wanted?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: And were there any subjects that weren't available to you that you felt like you might want to study?
Mr. Brownlee: Not that I know of.
Interviewer: So you felt like the education you were getting was well rounded and, I think you said, prepared you well?
Mr. Brownlee: Oh, yeah. They were, I felt, real good teachers. I mean dedicated teachers. They had you in a setting that, "This is what you will come in contact in the future." They were actually all around dedicated teachers. They lived up to their profession. They really made you feel that way. So I didn't have any problems.
Interviewer: And there was still a lot of support?
Mr. Brownlee: Oh, yeah.
Interviewer: From your family and ... ?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: When you were taking college preparatory classes, what did you foresee dning after you graduated from high school? Were you aspiring to a particular occupation?
Mr. Brownlee: Well, during the time not a specific [one], but here during the time I applied for college, then we came up to the Vietnam War. They had certain limitations: if a high school kid was not in college by a certain time, you couldn't go. That was mandatory. I fell in that category and I guess thousands of other men fell in the same category. Of course I was drafted in the United States Army, I went through two years. The last year I had to do in Vietnam. I got back and I made a choice which college I wanted. But I would say because this came about, I did have a black predominant college that I wanted to go to then.
Interviewer: Did your teachers or your parents tell you that it would be difficult when you graduated?
Mr. Brownlee: Oh, they always said it's not going to be easy because you had a lot of challenges. As far as my parents, they encouraged me because they really didn't have the opportunity to do it. But they were very much aware what you could get out of it. It's hard work. Even now I like challenges. I think I had a good foundation. Such things as to back off, you know, you just don't get it easy as ... myself. You don't get it easy.
Interviewer: So you were prepared all through school to face all the challenges and the struggles that should lie ahead?
Mr. Brownlee: Sure, yes. Positive, negative. And during my life I got many negatives, but I could deal with it. I knew how to handle it.
Interviewer: While you were in Armstrong High School, did you feel a sense of community with the school? Was the school a big part of everyone's life or your life? Was that a central ... ?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes. You could say a central part of your life. It was a place that, you know, you wanted to go and you know you had to go. I felt comfortable. It was the thing to do. It was a movement to get on. It was a very good surrounding, background.
Interviewer: As you were getting older, did you ever start noticing any differences between, say, an all white school and Armstrong School? Did you feel any kind of ... ?
Mr. Brownlee: What, after high school?
Interviewer: While you were in high school, were you exposed to any whites or what their high school experience might have been? Did you feel like you were missing out on anything?
Mr. Brownlee: No, not during the time. Again, I don't know. I guess you could use the word "brainwashed." The teachers there, they taught. and I felt they taught so well that anything you'd come about, you were on it, you'd know it. How dedicated they were. A little before I graduated from high school, I know of four teachers that I attended and they had jobs to go to all-white universities right off the top. I guess they talked with their families, I suppose, and they shared it back to the student body. But they felt their place was there. They felt that they should teach, or they found a place that they should teach. They were very dedicated teachers. And by the time you got out, I feel, by the time you got out, oh, there was some more learning--, you were "on it." I mean, you know what to expect. I mean you probably know what you'd come in to. You were very well prepared. I have no regrets. None. Because I'm still living, and I can see some of the same things now. That's how it was.
Interviewer: Can you think of anything I missed, or anything you would like to add about your experience at Armstrong that you feel is really important for people to know about?
Mr. Brownlee: No. only, I'm just glad I went there [laughs].
Interviewer: So, do you think people today would have any misconceptions about what your education was like then? Do you think that people would expect that your education was not as good as at a white school?
Mr. Brownlee: Well, I guess somewhat, [some] probably will say [that].
Interviewer: But it sounds, from what you're saying, that you got an excellent education.
Mr. Brownlee: Oh, sure.
Interviewer: And that it was the best thing that could have possibly happened for all the students at that time?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes. I would say that it was. I can see a lot of difference now because I have kids of my own, and you're talking about that dedication and attention you pay to a child? You don't see that now. I mean it's just hung down. I mean, you could learn and you could be a slow learner, but still you can learn. As far as the dedication, and how to relate to different races, you don't see [now]. I'll be frank with you, you do not see it. I mean, it could be an art just like anything else is an art, but you just don't see it.
Interviewer: Do you think that's because there isn't such a struggle now? Now that schools are more integrated and all the whites and blacks are together, do you think there is not as much encouragement to really strive?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes, there is less encouragement. Very much so. Things are more dressed up. See, when I came up, it was strictly segregation. In some parts of it now it's still segregation, but it's a little more dressed up. See, I can see this. What young kids now don't know --, ya'll kids now are free. They feel that they can do things, but it's really not that way.
Interviewer: But they are told that they can?
Mr. Brownlee: They are told that. But see, I can see this. Because, well, you can say I come up underneath the system. I wouldn't trade it for nothing. I guess you could say that during the time I come up we were caught in an economic barrier, but it's a lot of dressed up in it. You still have the same segregation, the same thing.
Interviewer: Do you think if more black teachers today could be involved with the students in predominantly black schools, or even more mixed schools, that they would give more attention to the black students and encourage them and be more of a role model to them?
Mr. Brownlee: From what I can see, yes and no. Certainly it could be lore black teachers or instructors, but I wouldn't say that will solve the problem. It more or less concerns dedication, the interest in the student. You don't see it. I think that more or less what you like you test.... you go that way. When I came up, you talked about different things, you didn't have things within you so much that all of a sudden you just come out with an outroar. The economic situation was enough tension. You didn't have to have that as far as your social life. You could always talk to your teachers or [those] who [were] around that were more concerned. You just don't see it now. I'm not saying it was just a little small scale.
Interviewer: Is there anything else about your high school that you would like to add?
Mr. Brownlee: No.
Interviewer: Mrs. Brownlee, I would like to talk to you about your experience at Armstrong High School. Now, you were in 10th grade when you began Armstrong High School?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes. I started Armstrong in 10th grade, 1962.
Interviewer: And how did you get to Armstrong High School?
Mrs. Brownlee: By bus. We caught a bus on Hull Street and we transferred to downtown to get to Church Hill.
Interviewer: And that was not provided by the school system?
Mrs. Brownlee: No.
Interviewer: You had to pay for tickets to buy the city buses?
Mrs. Brownlee: Bus tickets were very difficult to come by sometimes [laughs].
Interviewer: How did you feel about the condition of the building and the resources available to you during that time, [and] the classes you were able to take?
Mrs. Brownlee: The building was okay. When you were growing up, black kids from Southside usually had their choice of two high schools to go to--either Armstrong or Walker. And so all of your life you were deciding which school you were going to go to, Armstrong or Walker. And it was Armstrong and I was delighted to get there. You know, you were older, it was high school, you were going to meet new people. I felt like it was nice. And the building was okay.
Interviewer: What was the difference between the two high schools? Was there any difference or just the location difference?
Mrs. Brownlee: They were in different parts of town, that was one thing. My mother had gone to Armstrong. It was a family tradition. You go to Armstrong, it was the school of choice. But my class was sort of split and my class split three ways because that year they integrated the high school in southside and some of the children went to George Wythe High School. I think about 6 people out of my class went to George Wythe, which was the white high school in Southside.
Interviewer: Do you remember, was it an option for you to go to George Wythe?
Mrs. Brownlee: It was an option.
Interviewer: Do you remember how you felt about that option?
Mrs. Brownlee: I wanted no part of it [Wythe]. I had, all my life, wanted to go to Armstrong, and it was Armstrong I was going to.
Interviewer: So you chose to go to Armstrong more because you had been looking forward to it all your life?
Mrs. Brownlee: It was a tradition.
Interviewer: Did you feel in any way that if you went to George Wythe you wouldn't get the same attention and support?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes. That was one thing. It was more or less tradition, and I did not want to go. I just was not interested in George Wythe. You know, I remember we talked about it, and I am not sure that it was the classroom setting, but socially my friends and I talked about it, it was just no choice, really. And that was Armstrong. Some of my closest friends were also going to Armstrong, so that's where we went.
Interviewer: Did you know any of the students who went to George Wythe?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes, very well, because they were classmates and had been since elementary school.
Interviewer: Did you keep in contact with them while they went to George Wythe?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes. Social relations.
Interviewer: Did they relay any of their experiences?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: Did you feel that it was very difficult for them?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes, it was difficult. They had special concerns. They wanted to make sure that they did their very best. They didn't want to seem that they were that much different. They wanted to make sure that they did real well. And they did. They did okay. I think one guy who went to George Wythe played on the football team. And he made one of the starring plays in one of the games, and that was good. I don't really know very much about their experiences, but they did okay.
Interviewer: How about your teachers in Armstrong. Were they still very supportive of you?
Mrs. Brownlee: In 10th grade, when I had the good fortune of going to a homeroom teacher at that time, started our class of each day with a prayer. It was some inspirational passage that she would read, and in the morning, the principal for announcements would get on the PA system and he would start every morning off with "Fine students of Armstrong High School" [laughs]. And by the time you were told that you were a "fine student of Armstrong High School," that inspirational prayer, and the kids from Southside feeling that much closer together because you had to fend against the people from Church Hill and the West End who came [laughs]. You felt pretty good, and it was okay.
Interviewer: How about ability grouping in high school? I know you said when you were in junior high school you were in the advanced classes. Did they still have that same kind of set up in high school?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes. I know we just went on with our classes. There was some people from Southside in with the other classes and there was some competition, but in math class we tended to all work together because it was difficult for everybody [laughs], so everybody worked together and it was okay. In fact when we have our class reunions now there is this guy from Church Hill who told us, "I knew you girls didn't know any math when you came over here." [Laughs]. And when we were trying to figure out how many years it had been since we were out of high school, all of us came up with a different year. I think they wanted to make sure that they kept their lead in things, and we were going to make sure that we got our foot in there and our part said and done. It was okay--competition, but cooperation, too.
Interviewer: What were you aspiring to when you graduated from high school? What did you want to do?
Mrs. Brownlee: You know, it's strange. I started out thinking that teaching was the greatest thing in the world. I still do. Then it was science and chemistry and that kind of stuff, and then it ended up being psychology, and by the time I got to college I just didn't know what I wanted to do.
Interviewer: But you knew you wanted to go to college?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: Did your teachers or your parents ever tell you or give you the impression that it would be a struggle when you got out of high school?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: As far as getting out into the working world or into college?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes. In fact, my mother nearly [drove] my grandmother crazy about how was she going to afford to pay for college, but we managed. We knew it would be rough.
Interviewer: But it was still very important?
Mrs. Brownlee: I guess that made it even more so important if you think there is something you want to do that you don't know quite how you're going to do it and it makes it that much more important.
Interviewer: Do you feel like you got to study all the subjects you wanted to in high school?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes, except typing. I cannot type today and I could never work that into my schedule it seemed. But other than that, yes.
Interviewer: But what was offered?
Mrs. Brownlee: Typing? Yes, it was offered.
Interviewer: So there were no classes or subjects that you felt were not available to students?
Mrs. Brownlee: No.
Interviewer: So the education that Armstrong offered was very well-rounded and would prepare just about any student for whatever they expected to be doing when they graduated?
Mrs. Brownlee: You know, that's an interesting question. I thought so. There was one teacher, and I can't remember whether this was junior high or high school, who talked with us about a ranking. It was a ranking for blacks and whites, and there was also the section of the country you lived in. This teacher was talking about how kids were ranked, and it was Northern whites did much better in school then it was Northern blacks, Southern whites and Southern blacks. We didn't go into any detailed information about that or where that study came from or how she had gotten the information or whatever. But we knew that there were differences in educ`tion. We knew that there were differences, say when it came time to take the SAT test and those scores and things come back, and if your scores weren't as high and you wonder why, what makes the difference. If you are an intelligent person you learned what you have been taught at school, then what makes the difference. And I always felt like it had to have been the education, --not necessarily someone's abilities, but it had to be in the educational system. I think we learned very well what we were taught. We had dedicated teachers, we had people who kept you motivated. Like my grandmother got up every morning saying this is the day the Lord hath made. We will rejoice and be glad [laughs]. So you were glad to be alive. You were going to make some contribution, but when you hear things like that or when it's time to take tests or whatever, and you're given those rankings then you know that there is a difference.
Interviewer: Okay, now I remember you said when you went to Blackwell Elementary School that there were two shifts because there weren't enough teachers or classrooms to accommodate all the students. Did you have any of the same situation when you went to high school?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes. In attending high school in 10th grade, I went for regular classes that started. I don't even remember what time they started, because the last two years of high school I went to early class, at 7:55, which meant that I got out an hour earlier in the evening. And there were still classes going on because of the size of classes. Again, it's because it was the baby boomer classes and I think when I came out our graduating class was one of the largest, if not the largest, up to that point. I think we had 495 graduating from one high school. We had this teacher who taught us at Blackwell and he had gone to Armstrong and he was our science teacher and he wanted to know why on earth would you people from Southside come all the way to Armstrong when there was this school that was available for you in Southside which had been integrated the year we completed junior high. It was just tradition. He just said he couldn't understand it, but I think that was some of the concern our teachers had for us during that time. They talked to us about social issues, about just being careful out on dates. I remember the same teacher--it was some teenagers who had been in a car and they had died of asphyxiation, and he was telling us if you're out on this date, do not sit in the car [laughs] with the motor running.
Interviewer: So they were really very concerned for your total welfare?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes. And in junior high there was a teacher who every weekend reminded us of the weekend coming up and how Sunday was a day that you should set aside some time to be in somebody's church, being thankful for your well being and whatever. It was, "Let somebody that day find you in someone's church."
Interviewer: So, then the whole community was involved in your education, or your education encouraged you to be involved in your community? Would you say that your church placed emphasis on education?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes, it did. I remember my mother talking about encouraging -- I suppose I maybe was a baby then -- they had this new minister from Virginia Union University and he was telling the people there to get prepared because opportunities were going to become available, opportunities that they didn't have now. I remember in junior high school that we had a young pastor in our church then and he was engaged to a student at Virginia Union University and she got a job working at Siegel's Supermarket as a cashier. And we thought it was terrific! Jobs and opportunities just were not available for black people at that time. Here this person is a college student, and we're celebrating this as a major accomplishment for that time. It was a step up. A white grocery store just did not hire a black person to be a cashier at that time. I think, in high school, I participated in some of the civil rights demonstrations. Some of the most enjoyable days that I had when we picketed some of the stores and the movies downtown.
Interviewer: They were local demonstrations?
Mrs. Brownlee: They were local demonstrations, and we would march in front of the movies or restaurants for, I guess, a couple of hours in the evenings. The movies were integrated.
Interviewer: Was that your own idea? Was that on your own initiative or did you get encouragement from your family?
Mrs. Brownlee: We were encouraged by our family, our church, and community organizations--the Youth Council of the NAACP.
Interviewer: Did you have this similar feelings about your school? I know you said you had the opportunity to go to an integrated school. Did you f eel that someday the segregation just had to stop? Did you ever feel strongly about your-school experience?
Mrs. Brownlee: The school experience, I suppose, I felt very comfortable with the school. But it was as if saying that somehow you are not as good as someone else because you are taking your same money, you're supporting those stores, you're supporting the businesses. But when we went to say downtown to the five-and-dime and you could get a sandwich you had to stand at a counter where white people on the other side could sit at that counter and just eat. I mean, what was the difference? Here I am, a decent human being. I didn't see where there was a difference between say a white person and me. And because of the color of my skin I had to stand when someone else could be seated, on the buses the buses were divided so white people sat in the front, black people in the back. And when we would ride the buses to school, we just took seats in the front and they would ask you to move and either you moved or you just sat there. And it was not a question of, well, this is what I want to do socially, go to your school or date a person of a different race or whatever. It's just a matter of I am a human being and I deserved to, if I want, to go to be able to go to that movie. If I want to go to that school, have the opportunity to say "yes" or "no." Not being denied the right to participate in something just because of the color of your skin. And that was that we wanted the opportunity and that it would be a person's right to say "yes" and "no," this is what I want, a choice.
Interviewer: Did you ever speak to your teachers about these kind of things? Were they supportive? Did they have discussions about how you could deal with these feelings?
Mrs. Brownlee: I don't really--. Feeling about what now?
Interviewer: About the fact that you couldn't sit at a lunch counter and eat or you couldn't sit where you wanted to on the bus?
Mrs. Brownlee: I don't really remember conversations per se. I am sure, because we did talk about the social issues of the day, that in talking, and especially in history classes and in homeroom periods, that those things were discussed. But I don't remember a conversation say like something I could quote or something.
Interviewer: Did you ever have any classes where they emphasized black history or famous black leaders to educate you about your history?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes we did. I had an excellent teacher of black history, Mr. Brinkley, and by the time Mr. Brinkley finished with you, you were so proud to have been a black person. There was a method and a reason for everything in the black experience. It instilled a great amount of pride and just encouraged you to do your best. You had a long tradition to follow to take whatever life's circumstances were, and using it to your advantage.
Interviewer: Do you think that was a special circumstance in your case in your particular high school, or do you think that was common at any given black school?
Mrs. Brownlee: I know that the first time that I had a class in black history, and that was in 11th or 12 grade of high school where I had a specific class in black history.
Interviewer: Do they ever make any mention of it in the rest of the schools?
Mrs. Brownlee: And during that time it was called Negro History.
Interviewer: So they didn't call it "black" history?"
Mrs. Brownlee: No, not "black" history. "Black" didn't become the word to use until I was almost out of college.
Interviewer: Okay, Mr. Brownlee, did you have any experience with a class or a teacher who really emphasized black history or your cultural heritage?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes. I took the course and I was really fascinated to do some research that [showed] most blacks did contribute to the American way of life. To be frank with you, I didn't have any idea the contribution that a lot of them made and all at the same time, I wonder why they were just not put up front. You know, something that you have to study and research on. And of course, later on I understood why they didn't have them. But I enjoyed the course.
Interviewer: Was that the first time anybody had every really made a point to tell you about ... ?
Mr. Brownlee: No, it was in the earlier years of my schooling, but after I got to high school, it was much broader. Only fine points during the earlier years. After I got on to the research different blacks and what they contributed, some works that I found were very fascinating. You know, wonder why this wasn't recognized or why you have to go in so many reference books to find out this information. And it was a worthwhile contribution.
Interviewer: Why it wasn't just common knowledge?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes. Right. I was pleased with taking it.
Interviewer: Okay, Mr. Brownlee, what college or university did you attend?
Mr. Brownlee: Virginia Union University.
Interviewer: Approximately when did you attend there?
Mr. Brownlee: About 1979, 1980.
Interviewer: And you didn't go right after you graduated from high school?
Mr. Brownlee: No.
Interviewer: Then there was a delay for when 'you were in the armed services?
Mr. Brownlee: Yeah. Right.
Interviewer: Was this an integrated college at this point?
Mr. Brownlee: It was integrated, yes.
Interviewer: But was it predominantly black?
Mr. Brownlee: Predominantly, yes.
Interviewer: How did it affect you? Did you know any white students personally?
Mr. Brownlee: Yes. Well, I took some courses at Virginia Commonwealth University, and those courses had to be approved. During that time a met a few whites in those classes.
Interviewer: How were your experiences with these students?
Mr. Brownlee: Well, as far as I'm concerned, it was okay. I didn't see any difference. I mean, yeah, we were different. Just plain people.
Interviewer: How about your teachers in college? Were they mostly black teachers?
Mr. Brownlee: I would say half and half.
Interviewer: Was the experience different when you were in college? Was it a totally different experience than the earlier education you had received?
Mr. Brownlee: Yeah, it was different. In college, everything was on your own. You had to do everything and keep up the right pace. So it was accelerated a little bit. But you become accustomed to it once you get into it. It really wasn't a problem.
Interviewer: Is there anything that stands out in your mind about your college experience?
Mr. Brownlee: No. I had good teachers or professors. Mostly, well, you would have a format, but basically you have to do everything on your own. This is a place for higher learning. It's something you fall in the category you want to get it or you don't want to get it. But a lot of the professors emphasized that it was basically left up on your own. So I saw no problem.
Interviewer: As kind of a concluding remark in reference to your whole educational experience, what are the most significant changes in schools that you have noticed in your lifetime? Or how do you compare your education with what students are getting today?
Mr. Brownlee: Well, during the years of my education, I feel that it was a good one. I could communicate with the teachers or professors. They were dedicated, supportive. Today, in some way I feel there is lack of interest, just a little bit. I don't think it's really that foundation there anymore. It's something like, there it is, if you want have it [or] you don't want it. There is no encouragement. That's about the difference. That's about all. I have a few more credits and I plan on going back and getting my degree--probably 12 maybe 14 hours.
Interviewer: Okay, Mrs. Brownlee, what college did you attend?
Mrs. Brownlee: Virginia State College, at that time.
Interviewer: Approximately what year?
Mrs. Brownlee: 1965.
Interviewer: Was this an integrated college?
Mrs. Brownlee: It was predominantly black. I think maybe some of the grad courses had some whites. I had some white professors who were, I think, mainly on a part-time basis. I remember for our history I had a teacher who worked at Bellwood and he taught history class at night at State.
Interviewer: Did you know any white students personally or did you have any interaction?
Mrs. Brownlee: No. Not that I remember, no.
Interviewer: How did this experience with white professors affect you?
Mrs. Brownlee: Not really at all. I think I had an English class, a history class and German with white instructors. While the history and English instructors seemed to be concerned, they mainly taught the class, they were there for that time and that was that. It usually was a semester, just [for] a semester. There was not a lot of interaction. Those classes, especially the history classes, were large classes where you were in there, you listened to the lecture, you had your exam and that was it. Other than if you had questions or some concern about subject matter. There was not a lot of interaction.
Interviewer: Can you think of anything, a really important aspect of your college education you'd like to mention? Anything that stands out?
Mrs. Brownlee: During that time, I took a black history course at State. While we were in that class, it was during the period when they were trying to decide whether they were going to call that history "Negro" history or "black" history. We were in the midst of a name change [laughs], and I remember my professor, Dr. Taupin, telling us that several publications had written to him asking whether they thought whatever book was going to be printed, whether they should put "Negro" or "black," and how that was going to cause of the sale of their book to go. Eventually, we got around to "black" and it vas the acceptable thing, but I do remember his mentioning that in class. And I think my husband had mentioned before that during that time, also, though white colleges and universities were, at that time, coming to black campuses. I know throughout the South and with some of my professors especially, the very best and brightest were being offered jobs at white universities and colleges. And some of them did leave because of the difference in salary and maybe benefits which I didn't know about, but I know salary was one. But one of my professors told us that they stayed because they felt committed to the University, to black students at the University, and even though the benefits were more and the salaries were better, they stayed out of a commitment to black people. And I suppose those are the main things.
Interviewer: As far as a concluding remark, think about your whole education experience from your earliest days in kindergarten throughout college. What kind of education do you feel you got, and how would you compare your education with what children are getting today?
Mrs. Brownlee: I think we got an education I think was very good. We were encourafed to no only learn what you were getting in the classroom but to read and that education was a lifelong endeavor. It was something that you, you know, there are always new things to be learned and that the best thing to do was be prepared and be aware not only in education but being the very best that you could be, contributing something to you family, to your community, to believe in community service and giving back to your people. Being supportive to your community. Education today--I think it really depends. In thinking of my own children, they are attending integrated schools and then they have some teachers who are really excited about education. They don't have the role models we did in school, role models of the same race. I think my children--, let's see, one graduated from high school during that time, he might have had, from second to twelfth grade, one black teacher. My children, the ones who will be in the elementary and middle school now have had no black teachers. I am concerned about that. I think if I had to do it over again, I would not opt for that kind of education for them. I think that they miss a lot in not having a black teacher for the motivation. But like I say, they have had some teachers who have been excited that they connected well with and who have encouraged them a whole lot. I suppose it's always easier to identify with somebody who is like your race.
Interviewer: Someone who has had the same experience?
Mrs. Brownlee: Yes.
Interviewer: Can you think of anything else you would like to say? Anything else that sticks in your mind that we haven't mentioned?
Mrs. Brownlee: Not really. I don't think so.
Interviewer: Can you think of anything, Mr. Brownlee, that I didn't mention that you feel is really important to say?
Mr. Brownlee: No, not really. Again, I felt that I had a real good foundation. It was just great for me. If I had to do it all over again, I would.
Interviewer: Well, this concludes the
interview with Mr. Thomas
Brownlee and Mrs. Beverly
Brownlee and this was
with Amy Mays and Cindy Shillady
on March 22, 1992.
Questions
Index of Oral History Transcripts - African-American Richmond:
Educational Segregation and Desegregation.
http://www.library.vcu.edu/jbc/speccoll/vbha/
school/brownlee.html
Last update 2/97 (rb)