[The technical quality of the sound on this particular tape made a complete transcription impossible. Furthermore, the two subjects, Bernardin and Margaret Dabney, were not natives of Richmond; however, they resided in the geographical proximity of Richmond, and they both taught for a number of years at nearby Virginia State University when the Civil Rights Movement was at its zenith. Their personal experiences in a leading educational institution and their understanding of major events in area school desegregation add unique points of view for the history covered by the "Illusion v. Reality" Project. Ed.]
Interviewer: Can I have your full name?
Mr. Dabney: Bernardin F. Dabney.
Interviewer: Your birth date?
Mr. Dabney: [1915]. Had to count.
Interviewer: Your place of birth?
Mr. Dabney: Boston, MA.
Interviewer: Your father's occupation?
Mr. Dabney: He was an office manager.
Interviewer: Your mother's occupation?
Mr. Dabney: Housewife. she baked cookies and served tea ([aughs].
Interviewer: Did you have any brothers?
Mr. Dabney: Yes, two.
Interviewer: Sisters?
Mr. Dabney: No.
Interviewer: Your education, did you attend kindergarten?
Mr. Dabney: No.
Interviewer: Elementary School?
Mr. Dabney: Yes.
Interviewer: And the name?
Mr. Dabney: Oh, Lord! Florence Nightingale and ... Champlain? [He seemed uncertain of last part].
Interviewer: And Junior High or.... [At this point on the tape, the sound becomes inaudible for approximately 30 seconds. The portion dealing with the biographical data for Mrs. Dabney is missing. The following is provided to fill that: Margaret Givens Dabney was born in York, Pennsylvania, [in 1920]. Her father was a physician and her mother was a teacher. She is the only child. She attended public elementary and high school in Pennsylvania. She attended two years at Wellesley College, and completed the B.A. at Boston University, the M.A. at New York University. and the Ph. D. at George Peabody University in Tennessee. She also served as one of the Deans at Virghnia State University during her tenure there. Ed.]
Interviewer: We [Prudence Justis and
Kendra Johnson] are VCU
students and we're [students]
in [the School of]
Education and have received a
grant [from the Ford
Foundation]. This grant
allows us to interview
people about their
educational experiences. I will
now read the Statement of
Purpose.
[The interviewer then reads the "Statement of
Purpose," which takes
approximately 2 minutes. The transcript
takes up after completion
of that reading. Ed.]
Interviewer: Mr. Dabney, how did you feel about your education in comparison to youngsters in other schools of Richmond?
Mrs. Dabney: I just realize the problem is that neither one of us went to school in Richmond.
Interviewer: Right.
Mr. Dabney: Our graduate schools, I mean, our education in integrated schools, so, I don't know the exact question. I can answer with reference to experiences, except that, even in integrated schools, there was always present, what we would call now, evidences of racism among our teachers and among our colleaguds as well. In those days -- I'm referring to the Depression Era because that's when we were in school -- we were somewhat limited in our opportunities for work, and often times segregated with reference to work.
Mrs. Dabney: Bill wanted to go to [Boston] Latin School. [The Boston Latin School dates back to the colonial period and is still in existence today. It was, and is, a famous preparatory school. Ed.]
Mr. Dabney: Yeah.
Mrs. Dabney: He went to Latin School.
Mr. Dabney: My brother finally got in, but he had difficulties getting in because the principal of the school would not recommend him because he was black, and insisted that what he needed to do was to go to a school where he could learn manual labor because he didn't think he had the ability to absorb the education that was given in Boston Latin School.
Interviewer: This was your brother?
Mr. Dabney: Yes.
Interviewer: Was he younger or older?
Mr. Dabney: Older. It just so happened that when my father learned about that, he went to the principal to find out what the cause was, why he was not recommended. The principal did not know that the Superintendent of Schools was a member of our church and was also the chairman of a committee of which my father was secretary. So you know the end of that story [laughs]. A telephone call from the Superintendent caused everything to suddenly turn around and he was admitted to the state there [inaudible] because in those days, particularly this day, he was the only one, the only black in school, so to speak. I went there in 1944, not that that alleviated the condition at all [laughs], but you just had to learn how to cope with subtle racism and not-so-subtle racism.
Interviewer: Do you have any specific accounts of racism that you remember?
Mr. Dabney: Well, when I was in college, [inaudible] ...I had an experience of going to my academic counselor and indicating to him that I wanted to major in classical languages, because I had taken a college course and had received the highest grades in that area. He looked at me and said, "Why would you want to major in classical languages?" I told him why because I felt that [inaudible], and he said, "Where would you teach?" I said, "Well, wherevdr classical languages are taught." He said, "Well, they won't accept you in any college, and you know, they don't teach those languages any more in black colleges," or as he said, "colored colleges" then. He used the word "colored" rather than "black". So he said, "I would suggest that you not do that." He suggested that I major in English, relate it to the sciences, and that I would be able to enjoy teaching. But then... [inaudible]. So that was an example of blatant racism. it wasn't subtle at all. It's just, you're black and you have the audacity to major in classical languages, and there's no opportunity in the future for you.
Interviewer: Was there any racism from other students in the college?
Mr. Dabney: Not that I remember. There were a number of black students there in the university. I was the only black to receive a Bachelor of Arts degree in 1938.
Mrs. Dabney: You were the only one? I didn't know that.
Mr. Dabney: Byron [his brother?] received a Bachelor of Science.
Interviewer: That's quite an honor in history.
Mr. Dabney: It's historical, to say the least [laughs].
Interviewer: Some trivia? [Laughs].
Mr. Dabney: Yes... [laughs]. But there were some subtle references in examples of racism. But the group that I went with, it was not prevalent.
Interviewer: How about you, Mrs. Dabney? Did you experience any racism from your peers?
Mrs. Dabney: Pennsylvania was a peculiar place at that time. The elementary schools were segregated, the high schools and junior high schools were not. I went to a segregated, all-black elementary school. Then I went to junior high school, and then high school. There were various kinds of activities in which I was not allowed to participate. I was black. I remember in high school I had an interest in languages. I was taking French and Latin, and I wanted to join the French Club. Well, I think my mother finally had to go and put some pressure on somebody before I was allowed to join, back then. people in this state, at that time, did not have high schools in their home town or in their county, high schools which admitted blacks. So many parents, therefore, sent black high school youngsters to private schools, and this was one of them.
Interviewer: So Virginia State was a private school?
Mrs. Dabney: No. Virginia State was a state supported institution.
Interviewer: But the high school ... ?
Mrs. Dabney: But there was a high school.
Interviewer: That was considered private?
Mrs. Dabney: Yes.
Interviewer: Did they have to pay to go there?
Mrs. Dabney: Yes, they had to pay those people who came to D. Webster Davis High School--it was called "D. Webster Davis High School." It was one of a number of high schools throughout the state that were privately owned and operated and to which rich people sent their children because they were not high schools for them. So, black people, very often had to send their children away to school during the high school years in order for them to get a high school education. Our children went to the campus elementary school. There was no high school at that time, it had been closed. Then they went to the high school in town. However, we were very unhappy with the quality of education which could be provided in high school for our kids at that time. For example, we sent both of my children away.
Interviewer: Whey you say "away," you mean out-of-state?
Mrs. Dabney: They went to school in Pennsylvania and in [inaudible].
Interviewer: Boarding schools
Mrs. Dabney: Boarding schools.
Interviewer: What were the names?
Mrs. Dabney: [Inaudible] School. [Inaudible] even [inaudible], and the Catholic school, I think, was St. Joseph's in....
Mr. Dabney: Lancaster, Pennsylvania. No, I'm sorry, not Lancaster ...
Mrs. Dabney: Columbia.
Mr. Dabney: Columbia.
Mrs. Dabney: And Ann graduated from Windsor Mountain school in Massachusetts. What's the name of the place? What's the location of Windsor?
Mr. Dabney: Well, not Lexington?
Mrs. Dabney: Not Lexington. The name of the school was The Windsor Mountain School, and I'll never forget, Peggy--she's the older girl--when she went to St. Joseph's, she had on her transcript a course in biology, and she had an "A". When she registered with her counselor, however, at this [new] school in Massachusetts], she said she wanted to take biology, and the counselor said she [already] had [taken] a course in biology that year [in Petersburg]. One of the reasons that Peggy wanted to take that course was that the school in Petersburg had [only] one microscope for a whole class. The only experience that they had had in dissection and that kind of thing, was watching the teacher do this, using the one microscope. So she did not feel that she had had a real biology course, and that was because this school was so poorly equipped in comparison to schools for whites. That's just one example. There are so many others of the way that black children were short-changed in the schools which they attended. In spite of that, many black kids got very good education because they had some dedicated teachers.
Interviewer: In segregated schools?
Mrs. Dabney: In segregated schools. You see, I'm not saying that all segregated schools provided poor education, because that's not true, but in some things like the sciences, it was very difficult, even for dedibated teachers, to make up for the lack of equipment. That's such a peculiar thing to happen. I remember at the point where schools were being desegregated, the junior high school in Petersburg was renovated. All of a sudden there was money for a library, which had been very poorly equipped for this school, and for labs. But the thing that happened in many instances, not just in this town but in many other instances in this state, was that the school was renovated and that was during the course of a year. It was not to be desegregated until the following September. They closed it down until desegregation to prevent it being used just by the black kids.
Interviewer: What year was this? Roughly the forties or fifties?
Mrs. Dabney: What year did Peggy [inaudible]? I think, the late 1950's?
Mr. Dabney: Yes, it was somewhere in the late 150's.
Mrs. Dabney: In the 1950's, because they never went to a desegregated school.
Interviewer: Mrs. Dabney, can you give an evaluation of your college experience and its value in helping you understand society and your part in this?
Mrs. Dabney: For one thing, I majored in sociology. My minor was psychology. They automatically provided some conceptual framework for understanding what was going on, although, even in those fields, the theories which were used to explain what was going on in this society were in themselves racist. So, it was not necessarily true that because you got a handle on sociological theory, as. it was then proposed, that you had a good understanding of society. Those fields were as permeated by racism as any other. I don't know, that's a very difficult question to answer. You see, much of what you make of an experience is related to what you brought to it. Thankfully, I was able, I think, to make some sense of the world in which I lived, partly because of the frames of references I brought to it because of my own upbringing, and partly of what I learned in school, and partly the kinds of experiences when I went to school. Although I remember an English course that I had in high school. I worked on the school newspaper and I wrote very well, and this English teacher had a hard time believing that the stuff I wrote was my own. But by virtue of being in college in New England, [inaudible]. Of course, much of the abolition movement [before the Civil War] arnse in New England, so there was a kind of liberal tradition, but that exists along side of a great deal of class and caste prejudice. I had some interesting experiences there of being, as a black person, better received than an Irish person. I remember during the war [World War II], there were several persons against the Japanese. You probably don't remember, but drug stores used to have a bunch of counters, and I was sitting in one of those waiting to order a sandwich. To my right were a couple of Japanese guys--this was in a store near in Cambridge, near Harvard--and all the waitresses were down at the far end of the counter and stayed there. I was boiling because I knew that they weren't coming to wait on me because I was black. Finally, the two Japanese--I didn't think about the fact that they were Japanese--they got up and left. When they left, the waitress came rushing down to me, because I got ready to leave, too. "Don't leave, Don't leave!" [she said]. "Why is it," I said, "you know I've been sitting here all this time and you didn't didn't come down?" "It wasn't you," [she said]. "We're happx to wait on you, but I can't stand those "Japs" [laughs].
Interviewer: I want to ask you, what do you think has been the most powerful force for both of you that has enabled you to transcend situations that other black people have not been able to, Being able to send your girls away to school is like a novelty, especially during the time period when... [Inaudible - The tape becomes very faint for approximately one minute. Ed.]
Mrs. Dabney: Well, I think that's maybe something which we probably shared in terms of family background. I grew up in a home full of individualists. It was crammed into you that you always had to be better than [inaudible]. So, I suspect that's why. So... [inaudible], you're not going to get along in this world if you don't learn how to be disciplined and to study. So I think that was one thing, I grew up believing that I was capable of... [inaudible]. That was one thing. Then, if you really listened to the gospel of Jesus, the Christian gospel, if you believe it, you are also provided with some armor. You learn that all people are equal. I never believed that there were other people better than I just because they were white. So I think that the Christian tradition has been misused. The Christian tradition was used as an apology for sin. So, you know, it can be misused, but if it is not misused, if it is learned correctly, I think it is helpful in developing a healthy sense of the worth of oneself. I think that helped me, and I guess that education replaces what we missed in school. Racist as they were in some ways, did still in some ways, contribute to a sense of a world which could be fair. If you read the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States, if you read and believe that they're for you, which I grew up believing, then it is very difficult to believe that you're not a worthwhile person, that you shouldn't have access to all the things that go along with being a free person in a free society and a democratic society. Now, of course, when the Declaration of Independence was written, the people who wrote it really did not have black people in mind when they wrote it. But when I read it, I read it to include me. You know, if you read Martin Luther King's statements, he believed also that these things were for all people, and that's what he preached. He preached the Christian doctrine as being available to all men, and he preached the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States as being available to all men. So, the question that you asked, I think, is a very interesting one, but it is really difficult to trace in one's own self the path by which you've come. But, I think what you learned in the bosom of your family, about who you were, and what you learned in your church, when you put those two things together, I think you have to find that they are important elements. But of course, every individual makes for himself or herself how they... [inaudible]. You have teachers who will push you, and you have people who believe in you. One of the reasons why I think the predominantly black institutions have been so important is because they have given us that hope and concern.
Interviewer: So, how would you compare your beliefs and values with those of today's youth in our society?
Mr. Dabney: [Laughs]. Well, I believe that the age in which we grew up had a great deal of values that were different from the values of today, and I think that, of course, we were in the midst of a mechanized world, so to speak, an industrial revolution taking place and must continue. We felt that values were important, that's what you're taught in your home and church. You associated with people who had those same beliefs. Family was very tight and, as I understand values, they were extremely taught.. Now, since World War II, in this idea of breaking off from the Victorian traditions, we've lost something. Family has lost value. For example, I think that family in which we grew up, mother was always home. She was not out working. You were not a latch-key child, and the father was working, and he was the head of the house in those days. But now, you see, you have family somewhat divided and not as unified. There are "laxnesses" because we do not adhere to the Victorian principals. That's one thing that has changed tremendously. So, some how or the other, youngsters today have lost what I call respect for others as well as for themselves, because when they lose respect for others, they lose it for themselves.
Interviewer: Do you think maybe it's never instilled?
Mr. Dabney: It may not have been instilled. As I heard one youngster say, you don't know how tough it is to live today with no protection whatever from anything, from anybody. Society is so complex, ideas seem to be warped and people don't seem to be together on anything. Anything goes. When you pick up the morning paper or turn on the morning news, you're shocked at what's happening. I was speaking to my wife this morning, after I read the morning newspaper and found out a young man was killed walking to him car from his campus class in Norfolk... [Inaudible].
Mrs. Dabney: [Inaudible] not VCU.
Mr. Dabney: No. Just no reason whatever. They can't find out why he was killed. But taking things into your own hands to solve all of your problems, you know, and the way it is solved is to have a gun, and if I have a gun and I don't like you to say something... [inaudible], that's it, girl, you're out. It shows no kind of respect for individuals. So, yes, there's a difference in the age in which we live. And now, we're witnessing so many different things, so contrary to what we had... [inaudible].
Mrs. Dabney: I want to live somewhere where there's nothing so dangerous as a man who has nothing to live for, and I think we're seeing a lot of that....
Interviewer: That is very deep statement.
Mrs. Dabney: I think a lot of that is made the sociologists ... [inaudible]. You've probably had some courses ... [inaudible].
Interviewer: I'm in sociology.
Mrs. Dabney: Oh, okay. So you're familiar with anomie. I think that's what we're experiencing, and how it's gotten that way is very difficult to tell, but there are millions of people out there who know longer feel connected to the world in which they live. They feel they owe world nothing, and that there is no place, no real place for them in the world in which they live. The church used to be an institution which anchored people. That's not true for millions of people today growing up in families which are fragmented. Even middle class families which are relatively intact when you look at them, you know, mother and father, are not passing down those values which can... [inaudible].
Interviewer: I was thinking you all came up through a lot of movements, Civil Rights, feminists, all kinds of movements, and there were lot of legal issues. One of the questions I want to ask you is, did you all join in any particular movement in terms of a black national movement? Who did you like or who represented what your beliefs were?
Mrs. Dabney: The Civil Rights Movement here in Petersburg -- was not so actively involved. I believe there were deeper movements going on.
Mrs. Dabney: It was very supportive, but there was a minister here in Petersburg who was very close to Martin Luther King. The minister's name was Wyatt D. Walker, and Bernie [Mr. Dabney] worked with him. The students on the campus were very active. Some of them were in the students' movement, and it was, I think, very interesting to be able to see what was going on behind the scenes. You see, a person from a predominantly black college at that time was in a peculiar position. His institution was very much subject to pressure from the white power structure, so he was caught between the white power structure and the students and faculty, too, on this campus.
Interviewer: This was at Virginia State University?
Mrs. Dabney: This was true of all predominantly black institutions at that time, especially those which were publicly supported, because there were whites in the power structure who would call up the president and say, "Doctor, you'd better stop those kids from marching down town!" That wasn't just through here, that was all through the South. We had a president here who was a real taskmaster at walking that line, because he was, in some instances, making it possible for students to get bailed out of jail. Isn't that true, Bernie?
Mr. Dabney: Oh, yes.
Mrs. Dabney: Now, that wasn't publicly known at that time, because it would have been dangerous for him and for the institution.
Interviewer: Was he white?
Mrs. Dabney: No. He was black. He was the president of the college, a state supported institution, and his students were marching downtown.
Interviewer: And he was bailing them out?
Mrs. Dabney: He was making it possible for then to be bailed out of jail. He was also making it possible for a lot of things....
Interviewer: Personally, or he provided personal funds, or he negotiated with organizations?
Mrs. Dabney: I don't know whether he provided personal funds or not. He may have.
Mr. Dabney: In some cases he did.
Mrs. Dabney: But he also found people ...
Mr. Dabney: We always had a group. You see, the Civil Rights Movement was, well, it was just pervasive, and we had several groups do certain kinds of things, and there was a bail committee, so to speak. As soon as they would take them [students] downtown to arrest them, the committee would be there to greet them and bail them right out, you know. So, the funds came from our pockets. It was not a public fund. The NAACP helped a great deal to put funds in that they had. It was that kind of reaching out to let the rest of the community know, the white power structure to know, that here was a people who were intelligent enough to know how to bail somebody out.
Mrs. Dabney: Weren't you on a part of an executive committee or something for the civil rights organization at the time?
Mr. Dabney: Well, I was what they called "press liaison." I used to be the one they would refer the press to me to answer the questions, you know, and....
Mrs. Dabney: You used to talk a lot about....
Mr. Dabney: I was able to use language in many ways [laughs].
Interviewer: What are some of the things you would call intransigent?
Mr. Dabney: Well, Petersburg was not as bad as some places in the South. The deeper, farther South you went, the worse the situation became. But they would be asking all kinds of questions about how you bail these people out? Why you're bailing them out? ...
Mrs. Dabney: Aren't they breaking the law? Can they remain in school?
Mr. Dabney: That's right. How can you know? State funds-- you're fighting the state, they would say. Are they paying you?
Interviewer: How did you respond?
Mr. Dabney: Well, I'd say, "I'm a citizen, and where I get my pay from is of no concern to anybody. I'm a citizen and I can do these things."
Mrs. Dabney: The students were pursuing their rights as citizens. They had a right as citizens to do these things.
Mr. Dabney: And particularly often, they would quote us the Fourteenth Amendment. You know, the Fourteenth Amendment was worth nothing because they never followed the Fourteenth Amendment. So you had to attack them on that and when they brought up the Fourteenth Amendment, you'd have to say, "Yes, and show me specifically where Petersburg has followed through on the Fourteenth Amendment. " Of course they couldn't do it. But that was an interesting period, to say the least.
Interviewer: In 1954, the U.S. Supreme Court in a famous case, Brown v. The Board of Education, handed down the decision that segregated schools were in violation of the constitution. When and how did you learn about this case, and what difference did it make in your life?
Mrs. Dabney: The decision would take your breath (laughs].
Mr. Dabney: We knew a lot about it.
Mrs. Dabney: We knew many of the people who were involved in the case.
Mr. Dabney: The lawyers involved.
Interviewer: How did you know them? Because of your involvement, or because you were both educators?
Mr. Dabney: Some of them were our friends. That's one way we knew them.
Mrs. Dabney: Oliver Hill was one, from Richmond. Someone else that we knew was Sam Tucker.
Interviewer: What kind of conversation did you all have? I mean, did you all just sit around and think of strategies?
Mrs. Dabney: Oh yes, we were "strategizing" for a long time [laughs].
Interviewer: Did you really think that this was going to happen or did you think, maybe not, but we're going to give it a go?
Mrs. Dabney: No. We knew it had to happen some time.
Mr. Dabney: It had to happen. It war in the cards for it to happen, so to speak.
Mrs. Dabney: And we had a great deal of belief and admiration for people like Thurgood Marshall.
Interviewer: Did you ever meet him?
Mrs. Dabney: I think I met him once or twice. I didn't know him intimately as a friend at all, but we did know the people in Virginia who were active in the movement. It was prior to that decision and after that decision, I guess, that you can talk about us sitting around and talking about it. That was one of the chief matters of discussion at both social affairs and otherwise, because everybody was so caught up in it. You just felt that something was happening which was going to make a tremendous difference in your life and in the lives of your children. I don't think I'll ever forget the day that decision was handed down.
Interviewer: What did you do?
Mrs. Dabney: I remember I cried.
Interviewer: Was it on TV or on the radio?
Mrs. Dabney: Oh yes, sure, it was on everything, and somewhere around here I think we have it in a newspaper, but I don't think I could put my hands on it rifht now. But, it was a great day. I think that there was such a euphoria among many blacks at that time, we did not stop to reflect on how deeply entrenched racism was in the United States. I think many people were very naive and they expected instant change. It was very disappointing. I don't think I expected that. I knew enough to know that any society which had invested that much in segregation and racism was not going to change overnight. But still, for the Supreme Court to do that, it was a watershed in society. One thing that decision did, and many of the Civil Rights decisions, were at a very interesting place. Once there were some official dictum which said segregation was wrong and, you had to serve people at the lunch counters and in the stores, the public attitude of some people changed overnight. That was becausd the official expected social behavior was that you would serve these people. I think there were many people in society who wanted to do the right thing, but who needed that kind of social approval for doing what was right. I remember I had a very interesting conversation once. My next door neighbor name was Sam Madden. He and I used to work together at the... [inaudible]. We were working in adult education at the time, and used to attend a lot of meetings there. Sam Madden has no visible evidence ... there's nothing about him that would suggest he was black. So he and I were at the University of Virginia one day ...
Interviewer: You mean, he doesn't look like he was black at all?
Mrs. Dabney: No. He and I were up at the University of Virginia one day and when the meeting was over I was standing at the door waiting for him, and I called across the room to him. I said, "Sam, are you almost ready to go?" He said, "Yea, I'll be there in a minute." The woman that I was talking with was white, and she looked at me and she said, "Is he colored?" I said, "Yes, " and she was just flabbergasted, because she said, "I just ate lunch with him." So I said, "Does it make a difference?" And she said something which was so interesting: "Not to me, but I don't know what the ladies that I play bridge with would think." I think that's a very interesting observation. I think it did make a difference to her, but she didn't want to admit it. But, I think once it became socially acceptable, and the laws of the land said it's alright to do this, there were a lot of people who were able to go on and do it in spite of what they may... [inaudible]. So, it's important for the law of the land to clearly state...
Mr. Dabney: This is what you should do.
Interviewer: So, what about now? After all, a lot of young people think there's nothing to lose, and that the whole movement was for no reason because in urban schools [today] you have the same problems that segregated schools faced, which is a lack of resources, they don't have ... teachers [and] those problems still plague our society now?
Mrs. Dabney: And I think young people are right to feel that they are being cheated, because they are. The educational system of this nation has short changed, not just black people or poor people anywhdre that they happen to be, they have short changed them. They have not provided good schools for them, they have not been willing to invest the money and the resources into their education.
Interviewer: Why do you think that? What do you think the reason is?
Mrs. Dabney: Well, racism, and because....
Mr. Dabney: Is it racism so much as it is classism? I am beginning to think that poor and rich, it's poor versus rich, and it is true that the majority of blacks are in the poor class, so they get caught up in that more than in the rich group, higher middle class, so to speak. That, I think, is a major problem. Yes, the poor always get shafted, no matter who's in that poor group. However, there is some racism when they [critics] talk about blacks being constantly on welfare, when they're not, you see. Evidence will prove that if they look at the statistics; it will prove that there are more whites on the welfare system throughout the nation than there are blacks.
Mrs. Dabney: To an extent I agree with Bernie, but if you are both poor and black, you've got two strikes against you.
Mr. Dabney: Yes, yes.
Mrs. Dabney: I think that a negative attitude toward blacks is built into the unconscious of white people in this nation. I thhnk if you grow up white, and if you do not harbor racism, you are very unusual, and you're very lucky. It's probably because there has been something in your background which h`s sensitized you.
Interviewer: Do you think that now we should have segregated schools because of the kind of nurturing environment they would provide versus not having to put kids into desegregated schools based on the problems they have now? The crisis in education, what you said about the poor children and black children, what do you think would be the best solution? Should we go back to that segregated environment or should we continue to try putting these kids in environments where they're not wanted?
Mrs. Dabney: Well, you know, if you look at your major cities, it's difficult to avoid having segregated schools. All the middle class people have lots of... [inaudible]. So, I think you've got to educate the people where they are. I would not, personally, opt for segregated schools. I think the more you segregate people, the more you wall them off from each other. However, if you've got a situation in which the kids to be educated are primarily black, go ahead and educate them where you find them, but provide them with the kinds of resources they can use. Boston, I think, is a good example of... [inaudible]. Boston has some of the worst schools in the nation. In the inner cities, they are simply horrible. Have you read Jonathan Kozolls new book?
Interviewer: Yes, I just finished reading it.
Mrs. Dabney: Okay. Jonathan Kozol, you know, has a lot of experience in Boston schools. He just got a new book out. Have you read it?
Interviewer: Right. I just read it, "Savage Inequalities".
Mrs. Dabney: "Savage Inequalities". It is absolutely political. The power structure in this country is rich, white, and male. It intends to remain so. You know, it hands out the little bit of goodies, it coops people into the system so a few people get through the gate. But it is not about to be disputed -- wealth and power. It just isn't of course, it is more true in some other places in the world. For example, South America, South Africa -- it's the same problem only worse.
Mr. Dabney: Well, I would just add to that, to get back to what she has already said. I just do not believe in segregated schools or segregated anything. I think that we have to come to grips with the fact that education of people about desegregation is a long, hard process, because you have all kinds of groups coling in to try to maintain the power that they already have, and to see that other people don't get it. So, there can never be equality of power according to them, and that's where the problem is. The problem is not let's go back and be segregated again, because the evils of that are just too great.
Mrs. Dabney: You're not vouching for... [inaudible]?
Mr. Dabney: No. That's the way I feel about it.
Interviewer: So, basically... ?
Mr. Dabney: All I'm saying is, we just have to work on educating people about getting back this respect for people. When you get that back, then you will have some kind of equality.
Interviewer: But if we stay within the structure that we have now for education, the powerful and the wealthy don't want to change the system because it's benefitting them. So, of course, they wouldn't include a curriculum or hire teachers or professionals with an education that would foster more humane citizens. So, what do we need to do? What needs to occur for people to become more humane? Who needs to be the educators? Where is that going to [get] us?
Mrs. Dabney: People need to be empowered for some things. I think that's the only answer, because it is not going to happen if we sit around and wait for it to be handed down from above. It's not going to come. You're talking about feminism, I try to do lot of reading of feminist literature right now. There's some interesting reading in not just feminist literature, but liberation theology. Do you know what that is?
Interviewer: No.
Mr. Dabney: Never heard of that? [Laughter]
Mrs. Dabney: Liberation theology is what is happening in South America. South American countries are predominantly Catholic and there has developed in those countries a group of priests who are called "worker priests." These are people who are working with the people out in the indigenous areas. It's a movement that is spreading all over the world. Liberation theology simply means that the people at the bottom rung are being liberated to think for themselves, to work for themselves, to creatd new social structures which will serve them. It's all a part of how it relates to the Civil Rights Movement, and it's related to feminist theology. There is feminist theology, too. All these groups are groups which have been oppressed. Women have been oppressed, too, and so they're all having to learn how to throw off those shackles and to begin to act in their own best interest, and wherd necessary, to threaten the system. That's why there's so much anxiety among the power structure in places where this is really happening. There's a great tug-of-war going on in the Catholic Church in these countries between the conservative bishops and these worker priests, these priests who are the allies [of the poor].
Interviewer: Going back to desegregation, can you tell us about your memories of how the people in Richmond reacted to the prospects of desegregation?
Mr. Dabney: You mean of the schools?
Interviewer: Yes, in schools.
Mr. Dabney: Well, of course, you know that's when "massive resistance" began. The Stpreme Court handed down the [Brown] decree.
Mrs. Dabney: It was born in Virginia.
Mr. Dabney: It was interesting to note that the high officials' first reaction was to comply. That was their first reaction. Then somehow or another, this power structure, that we were talking about a moment ago, got hold of this and said, "No, you cannot." And the government of the state at that time, it's first reaction was, "We would be happy to comply." It's second reaction the next day was, "We would be happy to resist."
Mrs. Dabney: This was J. Lindsay Almond?
Mr. Dabney: J. Lindsay Almond. They just turned the whole thing around... [inaudible].
Mrs. Dabney: [Inaudible].
Mr. Dabney: Then what happened then was the establishment of "massive resistance," which J. Lindsay Almond did not want. He was labelled-as the man who resisted the Supreme Court. But he had to do it because that same power had put him in there, and they put him in there to do what they wanted him to do, perhaps. So, we had immediate resistance almost to the Supreme Court order.
Interviewer: What about some personal encounters? Your girls never had to face what the Little Rock Nine had to face? [ The "Little Rock" reference is to the black students who desegregated Little Rock High School in Little Rock, Arkansas. in 1957. Ed.]
Mr. Dabney: No. In fact, I don't think we had that kind of resistance then. We had some, but it wasn't that kind of resistance in Petersburg.
Mrs. Dabney: It was a subtle, rather than a more blatant, open kind of resistance, but of course, Prince Edward [County] closed its schools rather than desegregate.
Interviewer: Right.
Mr. Dabney: Prince Edward closed theirs.
Mrs. Dabney: One of our best friends, his name was Hubbard Baker, was very much responsible for opening up those schools, homes, churches, and so forth, which arose in that county so that those children would not just be idle and would lose all those years of their education. Some of them, of course, were sent away, and it would be really interesting for you to talk with one of those people--Counselor Barbara Gillyard in Richmond, who had to be uprooted and sent to New Jersey to live so that she could go to school.
Interviewer: She works in the City of Richmond now?
Mrs. Dabney: Yes.
Interviewer: What's her last name?
Mrs. Dabney: Gillyard. I think it's Ily-a-r-d"; it might be "i- a-r-d" but I think it's Ily-a-r-d".
Mr. Dabney: Of course, another reaction was the establishment of the academies throughout the state and ...
Interviewer: [Inaudible].
Mr. Dabney: For... [inaudible].
Mrs. Dabney: That's why there's so few whites in public schools in many areas of the state now because they still go to the academies that were....
Mr. Dabney: That are still left.
Mrs. Dabney: Bowling Brook was one of those. That's a school that is now defunct in Petersburg, but it was started as a haven for white kids. Now, of course, I suspect that most of the academies, they operate as private schools.
Mr. Dabney: They all have to take....
Mrs. Dabney: Now they have to take black kids.
Mr. Dabney: It's no longer exclusive.
Mrs. Dabney: But very few black children go to them. That accounts for the fact that there's so few whites in the public school system.
Interviewer: Do you think that if more whites were in public school system, the system would be upgraded?
Mr. Dabney: I think that depends on where the schools are located. That comes back to my little theory about the caste system, you sed, I think that if you have a lot poor whites and poor blacks, you're not going to get a better school. You're just not going to get a better school. Now, in the outlying distance, in the suburbs and in Northern Virginia where you don't have so-called slums or ghettos, you have better schools.
Mrs. Dabney: You see, one of the things I'm sure that you have learned--this is a course in foundations of education? One of the things I'm sure that you have learned is that there are a number of things about American schools which are unique. One of them is, that they are supported the society, and by practice there have `lways been some problems with that, because there have always been people who feel, "I don't have children in school, therefore, my taxes shouldn't go to support the schools." Well, the more people withdraw their children from public schools and send then to private schools, the more resistance you have to support these schools out of public money. So, year after year, we read in the newspapers that bond issues fail in communities which have small proportions of white children. These people are paying tuition to send their children to school, and they don't want to have anything happen that is going to increare the amount that they have to spend on public schools.
Interviewer: What were you trying to do at Virginia State University? What did you feel like you were preparing them for if they were going to a segregated university? What do you think you were preparing them for after they bad graduated?
Mrs. Dabney: To function fully in our society, among other things.
Interviewer: Just American society?
Mr. Dabney: No matter where it was.
Mrs. Dabney: Earlier, of course, we knew that many of the kids we taught would go into segregated situations to work. But, even at that time, I think that people at Virginia State felt that they were preparing kids to function fully in--wherever.
Mr. Dabney: I always thought of that even when it was earlier, when it known as Virginia State College for Negroes. You were always teaching individuals to live in a society and to know what the society was, what the pitfalls were, what you had to do. You had to be better! That was the idea--you had to be better!
Interviewer: What are some of the methods, how did you convey that they had to be better? What was the main intention?
Mr. Dabney: To set very high standards and to maintain them.
Mrs. Dabney: And do a lot of individual counseling.
Mr. Dabney: And counseling. Set very high standards. For example, we used to have what they called a "junior entrance examination" which meant that they had to have skills in writing and ....
Mrs. Dabney: Demonstrating skills before they could graduate ...
Mr. Dabney: They all would have difficulty because so many of the students would fail and would have to take the examination several times before they could get out. Some of them would finish their three years and still would have to come back to take that test. Well, it was just something that was a high standard, and we stuck to it.
Mrs. Dabney: One of the effects of segregation was to deprive youngsters of librarhes and the equipment in the schnol. But, you see, for many years it was not posrible [for blacks] to use the public libraries. Some communities had little rooms stuck off somewhere which was the negro branch of the library. But free access to libraries was not possible in the segregated society. Many of the students who came here had been deprived of access to the kinds of books, reading materials which they should have had.
Interviewer: In the Bradley v. Richmond Public Schools case, 1972, Robert Merhige, the Judge in the Federal District Court here in Richmond, ordered Richmond, Henrico and Chesterfield to create one large school system. Do you remember this case?
Mrs. Dabney: Yes.
Interviewer: How did the community react, and what did this mean to you?
Mrs. Dabney: What part of the community? The black community felt that it had some merit. That case I think was interesting because it never really came to fruition, because one of the things that might have prevented some of what happened after Brown was if school systems had been forced to consolidate. I remember vividly, I was in Tennessee at the time, and when the Nashville Public Schools were ordered by the Court to consolidate with--I forget the name of the county-- and it never happendd, and the power structure really did fight it. The sale thing is true in this case [in Richmond], the power structure really did fight it, and you know, the decision really got watered down in practice. Judge Merhige, however, was a towering figure in this area. His Court was often the court of black people, because he always generally came up with the right decision.
Interviewer: To benefit whom?
Mrs. Dabney: To benefit the most people, to benefit black people, the oppressed people who were before the court.
Interviewer: So he was the one that was on our side.
Mrs. Dabney: Yes. On "your side" is right. It was your's too.
Interviewer: How did you personally feel about that decision? Did you feel it was valid?
Mrs. Dabney: Yes.
Interviewer: Okay. Well, this concludes our interview. Thank you so much. Any last words? Well, I do have one more question.
Mr. Dabney: You have the last word [laughs].
Interviewer: With the latest trends and the way things are going and the way the educational system has declined in terms of resources and support systems for people ...
[End of Transcript.]
Questions
Index of Oral History Transcripts - African-American Richmond:
Educational Segregation and Desegregation.
http://www.library.vcu.edu/jbc/speccoll/vbha/
school/dabney.html
Last update 2/97 (rb)