[The interview was conducted at the Griffin residence. The tape begins with the interviewers introducing themselves and then proceeds to a reading of the Statement of Purpose. The transcript below begins approximately 1 minute and 45 seconds into the tape. Ed.]
Interviewer: This is Ms. Emma Griffin. She was born at 2900 Kingsdale Road in Chesterfield, Virginia. Ms. Griffin, what was your father's occupation?
Griffin: A bricklayer.
Interviewer: And your mother?
Griffin: Homemaker.
Interviewer: Did you have any brothers or sisters?
Griffin: One brother.
Interviewer: No sisters?
Griffin: No.
Interviewer: Did you go to kindergarten or pre-school?
Griffin: No.
Interviewer: And what elementary school did you go to?
Griffin: Kingsland Elementary School.
Interviewer: Is that in Chesterfield County?
Griffin: In the same neighborhood.
Interviewer: How about a Junior or Middle School?
Griffin: No.
Interviewer: They didn't have such?
Griffin: It was elementary to High School.
Interviewer: Straight to High School. What was the name of your High School?
Griffin: Virginia State High School in Petersburg. A laboratory school at Virginia State College.
Interviewer: A laboratory school part of the Virginia State College?
Griffin: Yes, right on campus.
Interviewer: And then you went on to Virginia State University?
Griffin: Right.
Interviewer: What kind of degree did you get there?
Griffin: A B.S. in Home Economics.... that I never taught.
Interviewer: After you graduated, what was your occupation?
Griffin: Teaching.
Interviewer: When did you begin teaching?
Griffin: In 1941.
Interviewer: That was your only occupation?
Griffin: Yes, until I retired in 1978.
Interviewer: What is your husband's occupation?
Griffin: He was an instructor at Virginia State in auto mechanics, or industrial education, or whatever they call it.
Interviewer: What were you teaching?
Griffin: Well, at first I was in East [inaudible] teaching in the English Department. I think I was there for about a year. Then, when I went to Mecklenburg County, I went on to [teaching] elementary school. After my daughter was born, I didn't go back to teaching until both my children were in school. I had a vacation during that time.
Interviewer: Where did you teach then? Did you go back to Mecklenburg?
Griffin: No. To the Arlington Elementary School in Hopewell then integration started, I went to Woodlawn Elementary School. That's where I retired.
Interviewer: Woodlawn?
Griffin: Yes.
Interviewer: And what is your religious affiliation?
Griffin: Baptist.
Interviewer: Do you have any children?
Griffin: Two. A daughter and a son. My daughter finished Hampton and she went to work for Johnson & Johnson. She and her husband have both been working for them since 1968. She's a senior computer analyst, and he's a financial manager.
Interviewer: How about grandchildren?
Griffin: I have one grand-daughter at North Carolina State University in Raleigh and another one [a grandson] is going to finish high school this year. He'll be going to college in Texas. They [the daughter's family] live in Texas now. They started out in New Jersey but Johnson & Johnson moved them to Texas. The other grandson is in high school .... My son lives in Chesterfield County.
Interviewer: Those are grandchildren by your daughter?
Griffin: My daughter has three children. one girl in North Carolina and two boys who live in Texas with her. My son lives here in Chesterfield County in Woodlawn Pine. Sidney goes to Lloyd C. Bird, and Angela goes to.... what's the name of that elementary school up there by the courthouse that Angela goes to? Well, one of the elementary.... it'll come to me.
Interviewer: And he has one boy and one girl?
Griffin: Right.
Interviewer: First, we'll start with your early childhood experiences before you went to elementary school. I don't know if I can remember before elementary school, but do you remember any experiences that you had before elementary school?
Griffin: Nothing but playing on the farm, riding the horse, ducking the goose that ran us every spring... [laughter].
Interviewer: Did you have much interaction with people outside of your home or your neighborhood area?
Griffin: Yes and no. Because, let me see.... part of that time my mother and my father, he was in New York at that time, and my brother and I did not like New York and we always wanted to come back home to live with Grandma until they finally moved back to Virginia 'cause I couldn't stand New York then and still can't. Other than playing around in the neighborhood and going to all the farmers' meetings, and home demonstration clubs that my grandmother and mother were affiliated with, I don't remember anything else.
Interviewer: How about your elementary school years? Do you have any memories of your elementary school years?
Griffin: No, not really anything outstanding. There were pleasant memories. I wasn't a bad student and I can't remember anything not pleasant.
Interviewer: Was this all in Richmond right outside... ?
Griffin: Right out here.
Interviewer: I'm not familiar with Richmond, but are we in Chesterfield County now?
Griffin: You are in Chesterfield County. And the school I went to is still down there. Of course they have improved it, closed it and opened it. When they integrated, they closed it. I think it's open now. I don't know what they do with it or if they hold classes when they use that building. They're stilling using it. It's right down on Chester Road, when you go down past Bellwood and turn to go to Chester. You're not familiar with... ?
Interviewer: I'm not.
Griffin: It's not far from here.
Interviewer: At the time when you went to elementary school, I imagined that your school was an all black school?
Griffin: All black.
Interviewer: Were you aware that it was all black or was it just a fact of life?
Griffin: That's right. It was just a way of life.
Interviewer: Did you have any feelings or was that just the way... ?
Griffin: We didn't give it any thought.
Interviewer: Was this a very rural area out here on Southside... ?
Griffin: Well, everybody had a garden and it wasn't like city lots. You had a piece of land and you had a garden. We had a horse, cows, beasts, chickens. I had a very good childhood, and I have no regrets.
Interviewer: You had stated that the elementary school you attended was in your neighborhood, very close by.
Griffin: Yes.
Interviewer: Did a lot of the children come from a long distance away, do you know?
Griffin: Some of them. And we all walked to school. We went to school through rain, hail, snow or sunshine. When we were in high school, they had the biggest snow storm we have had, I guess, since. We were riding the trolley car from out here to Petersburg to school. My mama had us on that trolley car going to school in snow up to here [indicating hips. Laughter]. I shall never forget that. The kids didn't even come out the dormitory because they had boarding students too for high school. They didn't even come out the dormitory and my mama had us in Petersburg.
Interviewer: And you had to go? [Laughter].
Griffin: You went to school. No question about it.
Interviewer: I calculated by our information sheet that you were born in the 20's and lived through the 20's. There have been so many changes. I know well pull this along as the interview goes along, but there must have been a whole different mind-set in the sbhool systems, was there not?
Griffin: I probably wasn't even aware or it didn't sink in or something. What do you mean?
Interviewer: I'm wondering how the education was different, I guess. You've seen education changing by being a teacher, I think. From your education, what was it like in school for you? What was a day in class? Was there one classroom or were they changing like today? Did you go through two or three different teachers?
Griffin: In school at that time I think there were four rooms. I don't know how they were grouped, but they went from first grade through seventh grade. So somebody had to be in class, like sixth and seventh maybe together, and maybe fourth and fifth. I don't remember exactly.
Interviewer: But you probably had a couple of grades in the same room?
Griffin: We had to.
Interviewer: And there were only four rooms to cover up through 7th grade?
Griffin: Yes.
Interviewer: One thing I didn't ask was what was your birthdate?
Griffin: I'm a lady, I don't give my birthdate [laughter]. [1921].
Interviewer: Do you remember the subjects or what you studied when you were elementary school?
Griffin: Arithmetic, spelling, reading, geography. We had more geography than children have today. They don't teach geography any more.
Interviewer: Now you're lucky to get it at any point. Maybe one year you might get it.
Griffin: Although it would be hard to keep up with now, they've had so many wars and changes, but even when I was teaching, we didn't teach geography and such like we had geography when I was in elementary school. And history, that was about it. I said math?
Interviewer: You said math.
Griffin: Okay. That was about it, I guess.
Interviewer: Was your education of a religious background or of the United States, or did you have a Western European background? How far into history, and where did your English studies come from?
Griffin: I guess the United states, but I don't remember any....
Interviewer: Was there a lot of literature books or a lot of books?
Griffin: No. You mean in elementary school?
Interviewer: We're still in elementary. Did the school have its own library?
Griffin: I don't remember a library. There might have been some books on the bookcase.
Interviewer: How about your own text books? Did you have your own text books?
Griffin: Well, we had to buy them in those days.
Interviewer: And every child bought their own text books for each subject?
Griffin: Yes. Of course, now they give them their books, rent them or whatever.
Interviewer: That's right.
Griffin: And they were.... I won't go into that.
Interviewer: Do you have anything more about elementary school, or you think we can go on to high school?
Griffin: Yes.
Interviewer: When you went to high school, was there only one high school that all of the children in your elementary school went to?
Griffin: There was one high school in Chesterfield County for black students even though you passed several good high schools. Everybody went to, at that time, Hickory Hill. We didn't go. My daddy sent us to Petersburg High School. Hickory Hill was the only high school then and, of course, now they moved it before integration to Chester, to Carver High School.
Interviewer: So you would have gone to one high school, but your parents had you go to the one in Petersburg because it was a better school?
Griffin: Well, yes. High school was very good for us because we had the use of the college equipment, and teachers [at Virginia State]. We got more than the regular high school gave us, I guess.
Interviewer: What were your high school facilities like? Was it actually in the buildings of the university?
Griffin: Yes. It was one building. Let me see, there were three floors. The building is still down there because we're trying to preserve it.
Interviewer: ... there [is] an organization that is trying to preserve that?
Griffin: Yes. The alumni of the school.
Interviewer: Your high school classes, were the classes divided by grades more so than they were in your elementary school?
Griffin: Well, you see we had the Englirh teacher, and then you had your Math teacher, and we changed classes, and foreign languages. I took Latin. They had Latin or French. You just changed classes. When the bell rang you did the scoot to the second floor, to the third floor or whatever. Sometimes we had to go across the tracks over to the Ag [Agriculture] building to take something. I don't remember what it was, [but it was] on campus there. Everything was right there on campus.
Interviewer: So it was more like a college there? You weren't separated by grades, it was by what classes you were taking that year?
Griffin: Right. Yes.
Interviewer: Who chose the classes that you took?
Griffin: We had a counselor.
Interviewer: Was the high school that you went to academic training, or war it industrial training, or both?
Griffin: Both, because the boys who took a trade in high school came out and did well for themselves into building -- bricklayers, electricians and carpenters, all of that. They took it all right there on campus.
Interviewer: And your school was well-known for both the academic section and for the industrial section?
Griffin: Yes, if they wanted it.
Interviewer: The boys were the ones that did the industrial and the girls mostly did the academic courses.
Griffin: Yes. Some girls took drilling and did Home Ec....
Interviewer: And your counselor helped you with the selection of your courses?
Griffin: Oh yes. So you can take the right thing to get out of there on time.
Interviewer: How about your parents? Were they very supportive when you were in high school?
Griffin: For a life-time.
Interviewer: For a life-time. It's good to have parents like that.
Griffin: My father has been dead for about eight or nine years. He was 97 and still supportive. [Laughter]
Interviewer: When you were in high school, was this also a totally black school or did white students also attend?
Griffin: It was black when I was there.
Interviewer: Did you have any feelings about white high schools or was it discussed at your school?
Griffin: No, I didn't, and I didn't get any discussions on it. Didn't give it a thought.
Interviewer: Sounds like you were very fortunate. At the time you went there, the instructors were also black?
Griffin: Yes.
Interviewer: This was when? The late 1930's?
Griffin: It was actually 1933 to.... wait a minute now, let me get it.... 1933 to 1937 and college 1937 to 1941.
Interviewer: And you felt very good about your high school education?
Griffin: Oh yes.
Interviewer: After high school how did you decide to go to college? What was your influence there?
Griffin: Well, I guess it was just from day one I was going to Virginia State. No question.
Interviewer: Did most of the people that went to high school there, was that also their plan to stay on and go to the university?
Griffin: Some did and some didn't. Even some of the kids that came down from New York, Rochester, and other places, they came back to college and some, of course, went on to other schools. Mostly, we stuck with Virginia State.
Interviewer: You got your degree, you told me, in Home Economics?
Griffin: Home Economics. I took other courses after I went to work to switch from Home Economics to elementary education.
Interviewer: Your first job was as an English teacher?
Griffin: Yes.
Interviewer: Did you feel like your education prepared you?
Griffin: It was on my certificate that I could teach English and science, because in Home Economics we took a lot of science courses--and what else could we teach? 6th or 7th Grade. I've forgotten what else was on there, but I know they were on there.
Interviewer: When you first started teaching, did you feel fully prepared for what you were teaching?
Griffin: I'm kind of scared to tell, but I made it. [Laughter].
Interviewer: Referring back to high school in our studies in some of the books, we had two books to read. One by [Henry Perkinson] and one by [James] Anderson. They talked about some of the financial industrialists of that time from the early 1900's up to about the 1940's and their influence on the school systems. I don't know whether or not that was something that you thought about or affected you--[such as Andrew] Carnegie and his libraries or the Rockefellers putting money in, but they seemed to direct schools, according to these books, in certain directions....
Griffin: Yes. I remember the name vaguely, but I don't remember anything enough to speak intelligently about it.
Interviewer: Did your family have to pay a tuition fee for you to attend this high school?
Griffin: Yes.
Interviewer: Do you remember if there was any funding for the high school from any other group?
Griffin: No. There was no funding.
Interviewer: Do you remember any political leaders or community leaders that were very influential in your high school years for the black community, or any events that happened while you were in high school?
Griffin: No, I don't remember.
Interviewer: While you were teaching school in 1954, I believe that's when Brown V. the Topeka Board of Education... ?
Griffin: Was I teaching in 1954? 1 had a long lapse there because when Audrey was born I didn't go back to teaching until Audrey and my son were school age, in school. I was a housewife.
Interviewer: Do you remember when they started desegregation? Were you teaching at the time?
Griffin: I was teaching then. That was in 1971. It was in 1971 when they desegregated the schools in Hopewell. When I left the black school and went to Woodlawn, which was a white school, I went into the 2nd Grade. The 2nd Grade mothers gave me a little silver plate for Christmas that year and the date is on it. That's how I can remember that so well. They were all very nice to me at Woodlawn. When I retired they were sorry to see me go. One mother had tears in her eyes and I couldn't believe it because I was leaving Woodlawn School and I wasn't there to teach whatever the child's name was. That was one of my favorite things.
Interviewer: When you got ready to go to Woodlawn which was the white elementary school, did you have any fears or feelings... ?
Griffin: You know, I would be, I don't know whether you could call it fearful....
Interviewer: Intimidated?
Griffin: Nervous, intimidated, yes. You just didn't walk out of a life-time of blackness. You didn't know how the teachers were going to accept you on the principle that they were all very nice.
Interviewer: Were you the first black teacher to enter the school?
Griffin: No. I wasn't the first, but when they transferred, they transferred the whole from Grades 2 through 7.
Interviewer: So they had like two schools that joined? The white school and the black school--so the whole group came in as a group?
Griffin: Yes.
Interviewer: Do you remember any interactions between the children or any fears or feelings that the children had?
Griffin: No. It had been talked about so much and prdached on [laughs] that we didn't have any problems.
Interviewer: How did you prepare the children? How long had you been preparing the children?
Griffin: Oh my goodness
Interviewer: Years? Your children or the school children? The school, the students?
Griffin: I don't remember. It wasn't years though.
Interviewer: What kind of things can you remember?
Griffin: Uh... [laughs], I don't.
Interviewer: I was going to ask you what was preached on.
Griffin: I knew that question was coming! I guess, just talks. You knnw, we're going to schools--the schools will be integrated and we have to live together--that type of thing.
Interviewer: Were they political leaders, the ministers? I mean, were they politically forced to move the people? I mean, was there a movement? Did you feel a part of a movement with this integration process that was going on in the country or just here in Richmond. Was it strong? I don't know.... I was born in 1966 so I ....
Griffin: You're a baby [laughs]. No, I don't recall, as far as I am concerned.
Interviewer: Did you feel like you were going to be an example and that there was pressure on you or the students to perform?
Griffin: Well, as I said, I was shaky. I can't speak for anyone else. I was shaky because I didn't know.... Like at Woodlawn School, they had six or seven 2nd Grades and there were just two of us in there. All the 2nd Grade teachers were nice, so we got along fine and still do when see them, you know, anywhere.
Interviewer: Were the class sizes the same when you changdd over?
Griffin: Small.
Interviewer: Smaller? Do you remember how much smaller?
Griffin: No, I don't, but they were not as large as what we had in Arlington.
Interviewer: Were the facilities the same, or better, or worse?
Griffin: Well, it was a [better] school, of course, because we had, as I said, two, three or four of each grade. I guess about the same, but more of it.
Interviewer: So the building, heating, cafeteria and library were comparable?
Griffin: Yes. We had all that at Arlington.
Interviewer: How about the text books that you had? Were they basically the same text books when you switched over?
Griffin: Yes.
Interviewer: Did the transition seem to go over well with both groups of people?
Griffin: It did. Yes. I was surprised.
Interviewer: Were there as in many white teachers transferred to the elementary schools or black elementary schools?
Griffin: All the kindergarten and 1st Grades were sent to Arlington School--the one we left, and from 2 through 6, because I think 7 went over to Cottonwoods.
Interviewer: Did you notice a change in the curriculum that was taught up through the 7th Grade, or did it stay the same?
Griffin: About the same. Because we had an "on top" of a principal at that school. She's still living, but is retired. She retired before I did. She was on top of everything and everything was going to be done that should be done.
Interviewer: Do you remember any events or any social gatherings, or anything that stick out in your mind [during] those years that you were teaching at the elementary school at Woodlawn that stick out, that you can share with us?
Griffin: No. Nothing that I think you're fishing for [laughter]. No, really, the integration went through smoothly between Arlington School and Woodlawn School. That's when they desegregated Hopewell. They put two schools together.
Interviewer: Did you have any feelings about what the public opinions were about bringing the schools together?
Griffin: No, I didn't. Because when we went in there, we went in there to work like we had been working. I must say, I'm black, but the black teachers, we worked. I mean, if we had to do it, we did it and it had to be done correctly and as it should be. That's what we did. We did it when we were in Arlington and when we went to Woodlawn it was no different. We just went on and did what we had to do -
Interviewer: Did the parents of the students of either one of the schools voice any opinions that you know of?
Griffin: Not outwardly. I can't recall of any particular incident.
Interviewer: So everyone was receptive to the new way?
Griffin: Yes. The classes were smaller, which made it easier.
Interviewer: Do you, as a teacher, I call you a teacher because you are still, have some information we can use, or remarks to give us about how you felt the children may have dealt with this seemingly new situation? I guess I was a part of an experiment myself.
Griffin: Well, it was a completely new situation.
Interviewer: Did they seem to enjoy one another as well. I mean, we talk about the... ?
Griffin: Then you put children together, if you don't get into it too much, they accept the next child as another child to play; come on, let's play. Of course, every once in a while you're going to have run-ins and a little name calling and whatever, but nothing major. You had to expect that.
Interviewer: Any time during your life time, can you remember if you ever had a feeling about racial inequality on your part?
Griffin: No. About this life, going into any other field, if you were black, you had to be good to make it.
Interviewer: Right. When you were in school, was black history a big part of your education?
Griffin: We had black history because of where I was going to school. But it wasn't prevalent as it should have been, I don't think. You didn't have black history when you came along in high school, did you? You had black history. Well, some of the schools did not have it, but we had it.
Interviewer: When you were in high school?
Griffin: Yes. How wide-spread it was, I don't know.
Interviewer: You felt that your school had much more of it than the other schools from what you understood?
Griffin: Yes.
Interviewer: During the time of desegregation, the United States as a whole had a big reaction, were you aware of any of that, and could you see any of that in your community?
Griffin: Conflicts, you mean?
Interviewer: Yes.
Griffin: No.
Interviewer: I don't know if there are things that you might just be able to just talk to us about, or ways you would like to see some of this information left as a historical document. This may be an opportunity for you to give us, as a whole, those who will be reading this some day hopefully, some background to Richmond. As you know, I'm not from here. It was a very different experience in Hamilton where I am from, and still is today. The educational system, what it has gone through, the changes that you have seen during the times you have taught and have been away from teaching. How did it change when you went back to it? I don't know what it was like to teach. I don't know whether that should be a goal of mine to teach. I don't know if you would advise that today. I was just wondering... ? Seriously, where are schools today, in your opinion?
Griffin: Say that again.
Interviewer: Where are schools today, in your opinion? In their ability to teach or to....
Griffin: I really can't answer that generally because the only contact I have with the schools now.... My daughter's children went to school in New Jersey and most of the times they were the token blacks in the class. There weren't too many. My son's children are doing very well in school. Sydney is very good. Last week he got his academic letters for L.C. Bird [High School], and Angela does well in school. So, I really can't speak for the School system as such [today].
Interviewer: During the time you taught, did you feel like the desegregation was a good thing, or it didn't make any differdnce for education?
Griffin: I thought that the education should have been equal.
Interviewer: Did you think it should have been equal but in separate schools, or equal but integrated.
Griffin: No. If you live.... like the children who live over there in Midlothian somewhere. I mean, why did they have to pass all those schools to get down to Carver to go to school? I mean that type of thing. I think it should have been equal, of course.
Interviewer: By districts, and everyone in the same district go to the same school, and receive the same equal education?
Griffin: Sure. If you live near a school, why not?
Interviewer: Once the integration occurred, did you feel that it helped the situation of equality in the schools or did you feel that it didn't make much of a difference?
Griffin: I can't say. I mean.... I can't say.
Interviewer: You feel that the education that was taught to the students when you were at Mecklenburg Elementary School was equal to the education that was taught at Arlington Elementary School?
Griffin: I should think so. As far as I'm concerned, it was.
Interviewer: Everything that came out of desegregation or bringing the two races together or the multiple races together, what do you think is the mort redeeming quality, the best thing that happened out of the integration?
Griffin: Oh yes. Bring me a taste.
Interviewer: This concludes our interview with Emma
Griffin. It
was a pleasure to talk with you. She's
glad. I
mean, you can see it in her hands.
[Laughter].
Questions
Index of Oral History Transcripts - African-American Richmond:
Educational Segregation and Desegregation.
http://www.library.vcu.edu/jbc/speccoll/vbha/
school/griffin.html
Last update 2/97 (rb)