This interview was originally planned to include only Mrs. Helen Hamlett, but her husband, Alan Hamlett, was soon drawn into the conversation. Mr. Hamlett did not attend schools in Richmond, but his experiences offer a comparative perspective between Richmond schools and those in a small town in North Carolina in the 1920s. ]

Interviewer: Can you give us your full name?

Mrs. Hamlett: Helen Johnson Hainlett.

Interviewer: And where were you born?

Mrs. Hamlett: In Richmond, South Richmond, just say Richmond, Virginia.

Interviewer: And what was your birthdate?

Mrs. Hamlett: [1919]

Interviewer: What did your father do for a living?

Mrs. Hamlett: He ran a truck on the street, delivered on the street.

Interviewer: So he was a delivery man?

Mrs. Hamlett: A truck of his own, you know. And he delivered fruit and what have you.

Interviewer: And what did your mother do?

Mrs. Hamlett: Stay home and take care of us. Housewife.

Interviewer: Did you have any brothers?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes.

Interviewer: How many did you have?

Mrs. Hamlett: Three brothers.

Interviewer: How about sisters?

Mrs. Hamlett: Three sisters.

Interviewer: Where did you fall in between them?

Mrs. Hamlett: The third....

Interviewer: The third?

Mrs. Hamlett: From the oldest.

Interviewer: Did you attend a kindergarten?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes I did.

Interviewer: You did? And what was the name of your elementary school.

Mrs. Hamlett: Dunbar.

Interviewer: Did you attend a junior high school or a middle school?

Mrs. Hamlett: No. Armstrong High.

Interviewer: How about a college or university?

Mrs. Hamlett: No.

Interviewer: What were the grades for your elementary school and your high school? Did they split them? Did you go to two? You went to two separate ... ?

Mrs. Hamlett: No. I went four years [to high school]. I just went on and started, you know, first year, and went right on through.

Interviewer: So what occupations have you held?

Mrs. Hamlett: Well, you mean recently, the last? I'm retired now.

Interviewer: What did you do?

Mrs. Hamlett: I worked at Miller and Rhoads in the salad department. I worked at the city welfare building.

Interviewer: Anything else you can remember?

Mrs. Hamlett: City welfare building, and then I worked at the city welfare twice. I was cashier at the snack bar on the first floor in the city welfare building, 9th and Clay.

Interviewer: About how long did you work there?

Mrs. Hamlett: Nine years.

Interviewer: How about at Miller and Rhoads?

Mrs. Hamlett: I worked nine and then I went back and worked four more years. I worked there twice.

Interviewer: Are you married?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes, I am [to Alan Hamlett].

Interviewer: And what did your husband do for a living?

Mrs. Hamlett: He's worked at Life of Virginia insurance company.

Interviewer: About how long did he work there?

Mrs. Hamlett: Twenty-two years. He retired from there.

Interviewer: Do remember about what year, the dates he worked there?

Mrs. Hamlett: What is it Alan? He just retired.

Mr. Hamlett: [From the next room]: 1966 I think it was.

Mrs. Hamlett: Yeah, 1966 and what...

Mr. Hamlett: Retired in 1987.

Mrs. Hamlett: Uh-huh. Went there in 1966 and retired in 1987.

Interviewer: Did he have any other job besides that?

Mrs. Hamlett: No.

Interviewer: What is your religious affiliation?

Mrs. Hamlett: Baptist.

Interviewer: Do you have any children?

Mrs. Hamlett: Two. Two step-children.

Interviewer: Are they boys or girls?

Mrs. Hamlett; One girl, one boy.

Interviewer: How about any grandchildren?

Mrs. Hamlett: Two. Two girls.

Interviewer: And have you lived in this house your whole life?

Mrs. Hamlett: No. Just twenty. How long we been here, Alan?

Mr. Hamlett: About twenty-six years.

Mrs. Hamlett: About twenty...?

Mr. Hamlett: Six.

Mrs. Hamlett: Twenty-six years.

Interviewer: Where did you live before you lived here?

Mrs. Hamlett: Up on Decatur, 2316 Decatur. I was born there.

Interviewer: You were born there?

Mrs. Hamlett: I was born there, yes, on Decatur Street up above the railroad.

[The interviewer then reads the "Statement of Purpose" and discusses Procedures with the Hamletts. This takes about 2 minutes, 15 seconds. Ed.]

Interviewer: So you've lived in Richmond your whole life?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes. Born here.

Interviewer: What are some of your earliest memories about your childhood?

Mrs. Hamlett: You mean school days or anything?

Interviewer: Just in general.

Mrs. Hamlett: When I was 5 years old I went to kindergarten, and this lady who taught kindergarten was my next door neighbor.

Interviewer: So your teacher was your next door neighbor?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes. She taught us kindergarten in her kitchen, and her heat was from the cook stove. I learned my alphabet and numbers, and then at the age of 6 I went to school.

Interviewer: How many kids were in your neighbor's kitchen to learn?

Mrs. Hamlett: About 12.

Interviewer: Twelve?

Mrs. Hamlett: In the neighborhood.

Interviewer: Did you go everyday?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yeah, everyday, five days a week. And I'm trying to think how long we stayed. I think we stayed a half a day.

Interviewer: How interesting.

Mrs. Hamlett: Then I went to Dunbar, we were along to Dunbar. We had to walk for, I reckon, twelve blocks to school and going to school we would go down the railroad track for a short cut. Real funny. And then we would turn at Everett Street, turn left at Everett Street and go down Everett on across Jefferson, down Everett to Maury and the school was situated at 17th and Maury Street.

Interviewer: How many kids did you go to school with? How many were in your first grade class? Do you remember?

Mrs. Hamlett: I had 38 all the way.

Interviewer: So all 38?

Mrs. Hamlett: All the way to Armstrong.

Interviewer: So what grades did you attend Dunbar until?

Mrs. Hamlett: I went to the first grade, second, third, fourth and fifth and sixth and graduated in the seventh.

Interviewer: Then you went eighth through twelfth at Armstrong?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes.

Interviewer: Were there only 38 of you all in the whole school? [The interviewer obviously means "grade."]

Mrs. Hamlett: Whole school [grade]. I can call their names, almost.

Interviewer: Can you give me a couple names of your closest friends that you remember?

Mrs. Hamlett: Closest friends? Lynwood Randolph, Lawrence Price, John Armstrong, Hazel McCray, Louise Dixon and Euphrates Robertson.

Interviewer: What was a typical day in your Dunbar School?

Mrs. Hamlett: Well, when we went to school, we wasn't allowed to go in school until the bell rang. And if you got there early, you still had to wait 'til the bell rang, no matter how cold it was [laughs]. That was right bad, no matter how cold it would have been, that's a bad part. But, our teachers were very nice. I had two teachers that taught. my mother, and their names were Mrs. Winnie Blackwell and Mrs. Elizabeth Washington.

Interviewer: Were all of your teachers black?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes.

Interviewer: Were they all ladies?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes, all ladies in Dunbar. And, let me see, oh yeah, about ringing the bell, we wasn't allowed to go in school 'til the bell rang. Mr. Archer was the janitor, he and his wife. He wouldn't let you come in the hall, you couldn't stand in the hall at all at no time. I remember that. I remember, at that time, the teacher would use a ruler and if you misbehaved, she would use the ruler or either take the eraser and you put out your knuckles. That's the one that taught my mother. We would have to put our knuckles up for correction, you know. And then if she would see my mother at the market, down at the Farmer's [?] Market, she would tell my mother that I was bad and misbehaved. And then my mother would come home back from bringing the groceries Saturday night, and I'd get a whipping [laughs]. That was the funniest thing. And we loved our teachers and we listened to them.

Interviewer: What kinds of things did you learn with them in your elementary school?

Mrs. Hamlett: I learned reading and writing and arithmetic [laughs]. Reading and writing and arithmetic.

Interviewer: Did your parents encourage you to do well in school?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes indeed. Each night I had to recite my lesson to my father. I didn't bother my mother. I was very fond of my father, and I had to recite my lesson to him every night. So in the first grade, our first book, our first primer--we called it "primer" -- and I used to read, "This is Will. How do you do, Will? This is Kate. How do you do, Kate?" And then I kept on reading, "This is Nell. How do you do, Nell?" And my father nicknamed me "Nell." [Laughs]. I used to read that to him every night. You know, in the first reader.

Interviewer: Did you go to school with all of your brothers and sisters, also?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes. Two were older and the others were younger.

Interviewer: Did they go on to Armstrong High School, too?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes. All of them went to Armstrong but one who went to Maggie Walker.

Interviewer: Did you have a choice of which high school you wanted to go to?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes, he had. He preferred Maggie Walker and his name was Barnett Johnson.

Interviewer: Around what year did you start elementary school?

Mrs. Hamlett: Hmm. I was 6 years old. 1925..

Interviewer: Did you go to school with any white children?

Mrs. Hamlett: Did I go with any white? No, we were all colored.

Interviewer: All through high school?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes. We didn't have any whites. we couldn't go to white schools. Didn't have but the one over here on this side. We had Dunbar school, and I went to Armstrong. Armstrong was the only colored school in my time. And the whole city of Richmond went to that one Armstrong.

Interviewer: The whole city?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes, the whole city.

Interviewer: All of the colored....

Mrs. Hamlett: And all of Southside went to this [elementary] Dunbar over here.

Interviewer: So you went to school with people outside of your neighborhood then?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes.

Interviewer: How was your elementary school, the facility itself. Was it a good facility?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes, they were nice. We didn't have a cafeteria.

Interviewer: So how long were ynu in school every day there?

Mrs. Hamlett: I don't know.

Interviewer: Did you go all day or....

Mrs. Hamlett: Oh yeah, all day. I think we got out at quarter to three and went in at quarter of nine.

Interviewer: Did you all have to pack your own lunches?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes. I had a little blue lunch box with two handles on it, and we had to take our lunch. And at lunch time we played over on the hill. Wasn't no houses there then and we used to go out and play over on the hill.

Interviewer: How about books and papers, pencils?

Mrs. Hamlett: Well, the school furnished the books, but we had to buy our supplies every semester, you know.

Interviewer: Were your books in good condition?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes.

Interviewer: Were they current books?

Mrs. Hamlett: I think they were used books. Some of them used and some good. Anyway I learned something out of them.

Interviewer: You did?

Mrs. Hamlett: I really did.

Interviewer: Do you feel like you had a strong elementary education?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes, indeed. I had some strong teachers. I respect them like I did my mother. And they were next to our mother, because we would be with them all day away from home. And I considered them like my mother and grandmother.

Interviewer: Did you, in you elementary school, did you all ever wonder what the white kids were learning?

Mrs. Hamlett: No. We had no bother about that. We knew our place and we stayed in our place.

Interviewer: Do you feel like you got as good of an education as the white kids did?

Mrs. Hamlett: I think so.

Interviewer: The other children in your neighborhood, were they as enthusiastic and encouraged at home to do well in school and to stay in school?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes. This class I was in, we all started in the first grade--38. And we went all the way until we graduated in the seventh. We all love each other.

Interviewer: What type of things did you learn in your high school? Do you remember any?

Mrs. Hamlett: Like, what do you mean?

Interviewer: Did you learn a higher level of math or did you learn more vocational skills, like home economics classes or sewing or cooking classes?

Mrs. Hamlett: Oh, yes, I took cooking as one of my subjects instead of chemistry, I believe it was. I took cooking. I had Cooking I and II. We had "Cooking I and II."

Interviewer: So were you offered more of a vocational type of education or you could take the higher learning also? Were your subjects more work oriented and home-life oriented or were they like a lot of history courses? Did it prepare you to go on to college?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes, indeed, because we had good teachers, good teachers.

Interviewer: Did any of your schoolmates go on to college?

Mrs. Hamlett: Let's see now, who do I know that went to college? I don't know. Times were real tight then, you know, not like they are now.

Interviewer: Were you in high school during the Depression?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes, I think part of it, yes.

Interviewer: How did that effect your school at all in any way?

Mrs. Hamlett: No.

Interviewer: Were the kids concerned about the Depression?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes.

Interviewer: Were you concerned about the government cutting off your schools?

Mrs. Hamlett: It was there. We made it. That's all I can say.

Interviewer: How were neighborhood institutions, such as your church, important to you growing up?

Mrs. Hamlett: We went to Sunday School. We had to go to Sunday School. Then we went to church. And then in the afternoon, we had BYP [Baptist Youth Program], and then from that to night service. And we spent most of Sunday at church.

Interviewer: Were all of your friends and your neighbors as affected by the church?

Mrs. Hamlett: Sure. My church was right across the street from me. I lived in the neighborhood of my church. It's there now. The Second Baptist Church.

Interviewer: Let's go back to your school. Tell me about some of your administrators that you remember in your school.

Mrs. Hamlett: You mean, like the teachers, the faculty?

Interviewer: The principals or the assistant principals....

Mrs. Hamlett: The principal was white. Both principals was white. Mr. Merrill over here at Dunbar and Mr. Tamason [?] at Armstrong.

Interviewer: Did you all ever wonder about having a white administrator?

Mrs. Hamlett: No. We made it, all right.

Interviewer: How did they act towards you all? Were they a good principal?

Mrs. Hamlett: They were good. They were nice, until anyone misbehaved, you know, you had to go to the principal.

Interviewer: Was there just one principal? Did they have any assistant principals?

Mrs. Hamlett: No. Didn't have but one when I went. And that was Mr. Merrill and Mr. Tamason. And I'll tell you something else about school. For a trip, we went down to Cedar Street down to Fulton.

Interviewer: And what did you see there?

Mrs. Hamlett: Down there to--what do they call that place? Where they make wood, prepare wood for building-- cedar?

Mr. Hamlett: For furniture, you told me.

Mrs. Hamlett: Yeah.

Mr. Hamlett: Cedarwood.

Mrs. Hamlett: What did I say it was?

Mr. Hamlett: You said it was for furniture.

Mrs. Hamlett: Yeah, they made wood. Show you how they cut up trees and make wood. Cedarworks.

Interviewer: Was that the only field trip you remember going on?

Mrs. Hamlett: No that wasn't the church, that was school. When we went there, we thought we was going someplace, sure enough. We got all dressed up to go. And I said, like the children nowadays go to Washington and different museums and Williamsburg we didn't have those long trips.

Interviewer: With your children coming along, what's the change that you saw in their schooling compared to yours?

Mrs. Hamlett: What children?

Interviewer: Your children.

Mrs. Hamlett: My husband's children?

Interviewer: Yes.

Mrs. Hamlett: Well, he'll have to tell you that. They don't live here. They live in North Carolina. But my stepdaughter, she graduated from high school and is in school now.

Interviewer: She's in school now?

Mrs. Hamlett: She's taking up business administration.

Interviewer: How about your grandchildren. How old are they?

Mrs. Hamlett: Three and twelve. One will be twelve the 28th of this month. And the other will be four, will be five in April.

Interviewer: What's the biggest difference, you think, between their schooling now and what you had?

Mrs. Hamlett: Lots different. They have more advantages than I had. We didn't have much to do, I mean, we didn't have many advantages of going places, taking trips.

Interviewer: Do you feel like they receive a better education now?

Mr. Hamlett: Yes.

Mrs. Hamlett: They should. They should, but I don't think they [do]. I don't think [so] because a lot of children graduate from college and can't read and write.

Mr. Hamlett: There is nothing there.

Mrs. Hamlett: But they got more opportunities, but I don't think they learn as well as we did.

Interviewer: You don't feel they learn as well?

Mrs. Hamlett: No, because I can remember what I did in the first grade. I bet they can't [laughs]. They have plenty of opportunities. We didn't have those. We didn't have no playground, we didn't have anything but go to school and learn your lesson and come home and recite your lesson to your parents. They'd go over it. I used to prefer my daddy, but they'd still over it and you'd better be right. And bring your report card at the end of the semester. Bring your report and present it to him and my mother. Grandmother, too.

Interviewer: So overall, education was reinforced in your family. Have you passed that on to your children and your grandchildren that education is important to them?

Mrs. Hamlett: Sure.

Interviewer: Why do you think it is important?

Mrs. Hamlett: Because we need education to survive nowadays, more so than we did then. Things have changed. We're living in a changing world.

Interviewer: In your opinion, what are the biggest misconceptions you think people have today about the schools during your time? Like our generation, what do you think we think about your schools, but we really don't know? What myths today about schools when you were young do you think we hold that aren't true, that are just myths?

Mrs. Hamlett: What did she say?

Mr. Hamlett: I don't quite catch that one. Can you break it down a little bit?

Mrs. Hamlett: Come on here now. [Laughter].

Mr. Hamlett: No, I didn't want to get in it [Mr. Hamlett enters the room, laughing].

Mrs. Hamlett: Well, come on in, because he went to a four room-- what you went to there, a four room country school?

Mr. Hamlett: I went to a two-room. I was a fireman. I just told them, a long heater. I just cut wood, kept the fire going. Yes sir. I'm not that old, either [laughs].

Interviewer: What is your name?

Mr. Hamlett: Alan Hamlett.

Interviewer: And where did you attend school?

Mr. Hamlett: I attended school in North Carolina. Oxford, North Carolina.

Mrs. Hamlett: Name your school, Alan, high school and all.

Mr. Hamlett: Oh, I wound up going to Mary Pollard High. But this little country school, I forgot what we called it. I think it was Huntsberry. I think we used to call it Huntsberry School. It was just a little long wooden building, and it was split into sections, two classrooms. And that was it. So my being one of the largest boys, they but me in the wood gang to cut the wood. That's what we had. You know, like you was saying a minute ago--l didn't want get in on it--but the advantage the kids got now, Lord, I can look around and see the difference.

Interviewer: Can you give us some examples?

Mr. Hamlett: I can just look across Blackwell over there. That little playground they got over there, sliding board, swings. I can remember I had to go out and ride little bushes down, trees.

Interviewer: Do you think that the kids today take for granted what they are faced with in education? Do you think they take it for granted, they don't appreciate it?

Mr. Hamlett: Yeah, I really do. I look at it that way, yes. I really do. Because they've got so much more than we had.

Interviewer: When you all were encouraged to go to school and to get an education, what basis was that? What did your parents say as to why you needed an education? What were you going to gain from getting an education?

Mr. Hamlett: Well,...

Mrs. Hamlett: In years to come, [they] said, you'll get a good position, you'd have to be educated in the coming years.

Mr. Hamlett: But I was grown before I even realized too much about it. Right now without some type of education, a job, you can almost get thrown off your job. After being there so long, it's certain things that you just can't come up with.

Interviewer: Do you feel like your education was good overall.

Mr. Hamlett: Yes, [but] I didn't finish high school before I got called in the Army. I went in the Army in 1943.

Interviewer: Did you serve with white men in the Army.

Mr. Hamlett: I did that.

Interviewer: And how were you treated?

Mr. Hamlett: Well, what can I say [laughs]?

Mrs. Hamlett: How was you treated, Alan?

Mr. Hamlett: [Laughs]. They was just there. I'm saying, what can I say? It was there.

Interviewer: Did you all have equal opportunities in the Army as the white men did?

Mrs. Hamlett: Equal opportunities, Alan.

Mr. Hamlett: Yeah, well, you could say that. But, you was always called out by your name and stuff like that. I served in the 24th Infantry when I went overseas with the 372nd Infantry, the old National Guard outfit, which got no further than the Hawaiian Islands. And that was [an] all black [unit]. But there was picked out of that a group to join the 24th Infantry on Okinawa, and they was mixed.

Interviewer: Around what year was this?

Mr. Hamlett: We're talking about the last of 1944 or early 1945.

Interviewer: And how old were you then?

Mr. Hamlett: Eighteen. I went in at 18. I was in the first 18-year-old draft. There wasn't no volunteer [laughs]. I didn't duck it, though [laughs].

Interviewer: What did you do when you came home?

Mr. Hamlett: When I got home, the first thing I did was look for a job because my little hometown is still a town, it's not a city--tobacco work and stuff like that. I went in as a chauffeur driving for a one legged insurance man, which was a white fellow. And then when I got out of the Army, he was dead. So I had no job to go back to. I just had to apply for a job. So that fall...

Mrs. Hamlett: Well, you went to school.

Mr. Hamlett: I fell back on a "1152-20" which they gave a soldier benefit -- "1152-20." You sign up for unemployed and draw it. I think I must have drawn two or three pays off it, then found a job.

Interviewer: What did you do?

Mr. Hamlett: Well, I went to work at Imperial Tobacco Company. They liked my work, they put me on regular. There, I went to night school.

Interviewer: Where did you go to night school.

Mr. Hamlett: Back to Mary Pollard High under the G.I. Bill of Rights.

Interviewer: How old were you then?

Mr. Hamlett: We're talking about 22 or 23.

Interviewer: Did you finish night school.

Mr. Hamlett: Yes. I finished building maintenance--15 months, I had 12 months left of accelerated high, and I took that, too.

Interviewer: What brought you to Richmond?

Mr. Hamlett: Well, work. Like I said, Oxford is a small town. It's a tobacco town and work got slow so I decided to go North. I had an uncle here, but I really wasn't coming here to live. I was on my way to Jersey, which I'm glad I stopped by here. Cause this what I got...

Mrs. Hamlett: Why? Why did you stop? [Laughter].

Mr. Hamlett: Well, I met you for one thing [laughs]. And I haven't gone no further. That's been, what ... ?

Mrs. Hamlett: That was in 1966. He came here in January 1966, and I met him in July 1966. And we got married in October. What year was it, Linda, when you got Married? [This is directed to her niece sitting nearby, who replies, "1967"].

Mrs. Hamlett: Yeah, and we've been together every since.

Mr. Hamlett: Went to Manpower, got a job. The second day I was here I went to Manpower. They put me to work. They're going to give you something to do if you want to work. That's why I can't see bums walking the street now and don't have nothing. There's "Kelly," or I could keep on calling them. If they want to work, they can work. But Manpower give me a half a day's work and the next day I get me a whole day. I even worked at "High Grades," I can't stop to call the places...

Mrs. Hamlett: Sauers Extract.

Mr. Hamlett: Yeah. Finally, they send me to Life of Virginia Insurance Company. Said you'll be there two weeks. That's a good job. I left there with 22 years of service.

Interviewer: So were your children educated in Richmond?

Mr. Hamlett: No, they stayed in North Carolina.

Interviewer: Are your grandchildren there now?

Mr. Hamlett: Yes.

Interviewer: Do you think there is a big difference between North Carolina schooling [and here in Richmond]? Do you think that you had a big difference in the schools, the education [each of] you received?

Mr. Hamlett: No, not really.

Mrs. Hamlett: The same, I think.

Mr. Hamlett: Yeah, I would say about the same. The only thing about it, I still say they got more of a chance. That they can learn faster if they want to. I mean we can't learn nothing if we don't want to learn. And if we want to believe in dope or step around the corner and do the wrong thing, now that's easily done. I'm 67 years old. I know right from wrong. And a friend mine, "hey buddy come on," I don't have to "hey buddy" and go with him. Forget it. But that's what we got out here.

Mrs. Hamlett: We had more stricter parents, I think, in my time. I mean your grandmother, your next door neighbor or anyone that knew your mother could correct you if they thought that you were doing the wrong thing. Or you should be home [rather] than out in the street. In fact, if you were out doing or they thought you were doing [wrong] they'd take you home.

Mr. Hamlett: You know the worst whipping I've ever got, that I can recall, and I was whipped with my father's tongue, not his hand. His tongue was what done it because if he had beat me, I might have done it again. But I'll never forget, he had an old Chevrolet. You had to use a crank to crank it. And he left that thing at home one day and, I don't know, something told me to crank it up and drive it. I'd been seeing how he done it. You know, I turned the key on and cranked it up and if the thing had been in gear, I reckon it would have run over top of me. But anyway, I got that thing started, and I backed it all the way up to Orange Street where I lived, from Merriman Street all the way up to Orange Street. Now I'm going to drive the thing back. And I'll never forget Mr. Sidney Burrell, he was in his yard, and he saw me. And that's all it took. Drove that thing back to the house and parked it and got out of it and thought I had done a great deal. And that night, I know he was going to tell it, but I was expecting to get a whipping and I got a talking. I wish he had of whipped me. I would have felt better.

Interviewer: Do you think the teachers of your time were more caring and more involved with the students than they are today?

Mrs. Hamlett: I think so. Yes, I think so.

Mr. Hamlett: I can answer that by saying yes. Because they don't have as many kids as they got now, they don't have that ratty type. I mean kids was kids then and that's it.

Mrs. Hamlett: You was a child.

Interviewer: If you could change something about the schools today, what would that be?

Mr. Hamlett: Number one, I'd keep dope out of it. I think that's one of the main problems. Not to mention that little boys is carrying big guns in their pockets, and pocket knives. You don't need that in school.

Interviewer: Do you think they are missing something that they're studying? Do you think there is anything else they should be learning that they are not now?

Mrs. Hamlett: I don't know. We had strict teachers, you know. And you just, well, it had been with your mother to be with your teacher. And I don't know whether it's the teachers of today is as strict as they were.

Mr. Hamlett: I think the teachers of today is working just as hard, harder. They got more of job, more responsibility than the teacher back in those days had. I know that. One of my customers that I cut grass for, his daughter just retired. They are white, and they teach up here in, what is the place, Helen, Shana

Mrs. Hamlett: Shanara [Chimborazo?] Park.

Mr. Hamlett: Shanara Park, up on Church Hill.

Mrs. Hamlett: Up on Church Hill.

Mr. Hamlett: And that lady, one year I know they filled her gas tank with sand. I can't remember the thing they done to her car. But she made it to retirement.

Interviewer: Back to your high school experience [to Mrs. Hamlett]. Were you offered extra curricular activities, like after school sports? Did you all participate in anything?

Mrs. Hamlett: No, we didn't have much of that. The only thing we had to look forward to was the football game.

Interviewer: Between... ?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yeah, between towns. We always looked forward for the football game, during my time, [between] Maggie Walker and Armstrong, the two high schools....

Interviewer: What did you think about the desegregation of the schools? Were you aware when that was going on in Richmond?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yeah. I thought that was a good idea.

Interviewer: You did?

Mrs. Hamlett: Mm-hmm.

Interviewer: Why?

Mrs. Hamlett: Because we are supposed to be one flesh and one blood, and not supposed to cater to the races. We all should be one, regardless of your race. And I thought it was a wonderful idea, because the colored would have to go places and do things that they couldn't do before. In my time, lots of places we couldn't go. But now we can go most anyplace in the city.

Mr. Hamlett: Otherwise, if you've got a basket of apples and one should go bad. You wouldn't throw the basket away. You'd throw that one apple out of there. So you're going to find bad things...

Mrs. Hamlett: He's preaching a sermon [laughs].

Mr. Hamlett: I'm serious. You're going to find something bad in anything you touch, you're going to find something bad in it. That applies to people. You know, I walk down the street right now and I can see one of my black brothers using profane language and ladies passing. I don't think it's right, but then I can go around the corner and I can catch a white one doing the same. It's not right. They're not respecting the ladies. I mean, if you want to cuss... as they said one time when I was in the Ai-my in Mississippi, if you want to laugh, stick your head in the garbage can and laugh. And I believe that, too. But that's the way you do it.

Mrs. Hamlett: In Mississippi, I guess so [laughs].

Mr. Hamlett: Yeah, Mississippi was terrible. They carried us [black soldiers] across at night. I'm glad they did.

Interviewer: When you were in high school or even in elementary school, when you were taught history, were you taught black history in particular or were you taught a very general history?

Mrs. Hamlett: General history.

Interviewer: Which heroes did you learn about or which famous people do you remember learning about in school?

Mr. Hamlett: Columbus discovered America.

Mrs. Hamlett: We learned that in grade school about Columbus discovered America.

Interviewer: What about any black heroines or heroes?

Mrs. Hamlett: Who was the man that discovered the peanuts?

Mr. Hamlett: George Washington Carver. There was the man that made the lock, the door hinges. I can think of a whole bunch of them, but I can't call them by name. But I don't recall taking up none of that in school myself.

Mrs. Hamlett: I didn't take black history. I just took history, general history I and 11 at Armstrong and like that.

Interviewer: That was just American History?

Mrs. Hamlett: Uh-huh.

Interviewer: Did you have any friends outside of your black race that you were friends with growing up? [Apparently Mrs. Hamlett understands the question to mean black friends who were not from Southside Richmond. Ed.]

Mrs. Hamlett: No, we all became friends. But on Sunday afternoon, we used to visit each other. Those that was in my grade on Church Hill, especially the boys, used to come to Southside, visit the girls on Southside and get run back [laughs]. The boys over here run them back [laughs].

Mr. Hamlett: You had white friends when you lived in up and around Charlottesville, didn't you?

Mrs. Hamlett: In Charlottesville?

Mr. Hamlett: Yeah, you told me Charlottesville, Nelson County, back up there one time when you lived [there].

Mrs. Hamlett: Yeah. I lived in Charlottesville once. I didn't mention that. I lived Charlottesville-and worked at Arthur Jefferson's Hospital/Infirmary.

Interviewer: How old were you then when you worked in Charlottesville?

Mrs. Hamlett: I think I was in my late 20s.

Interviewer: Is the church still an important part of the community for everyone around here today?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes. We have one right back of us, the First Baptist.

Interviewer: Is it as important to the kids, the school age kids today?

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes.

Interviewer: Still strongly influenced.

Mrs. Hamlett: Yes. They have a lot of activities over here at the First Baptist. Also at my church.

Mr. Hamlett: We got right much of a "bang bang" next door.

Mrs. Hamlett: It's Holiness church [laughs].

Mr. Hamlett: Got quite a bit of "bang bang" over there. We enjoy it though [laughs]. We enjoy it, though.

Mrs. Hamlett: [Laughs], I told him to go over there and be a minister. If he studied to be a minister he wouldn't have far to go with the church right there [laughs].

Interviewer: Based on your experience and everything you've told us today, what do you think has been the most important effect that racial desegregation has had on Richmond schools? What's the best outcome that has happened from the desegregation of Richmond schools?

Mrs. Hamlett: Aren't they getting along? I think they are doing right good, don't you? Don't you, Alan?

Mr. Hamlett: They're doing better than they're doing in Brooklyn, New York, from what I can understand.

Mrs. Hamlett: I think they are doing fair here.

Mr. Hamlett: But you know, I'd like to just throw this in. It won't take but a second.

Interviewer: Go right ahead.

Mr. Hamlett: I retired from Life of Virginia and you know the best friends I had was white there. And they used to crack at me. I was a bartender there before I left. For some years, I was company bartender.

[The tape becomes inaudible for approximately 17 seconds. Ed.]

Well, Mr. Coward, me and him was real tight. And he was quick to use the word "black" or snmething of that type. I don't think he meant anything by it; if he did, it didn't bother me because I find...

[Transcript ends here.]

Questions
or Comments

Index of Oral History Transcripts - African-American Richmond: Educational Segregation and Desegregation.