[The interview was conducted at the Howlett residence. Discussion of procedures and the reading of the Statement of Purpose occurred off-tape. Ed.]
Interviewer: What was you date of birth?
Howlett: [1921].
Interviewer: What was your place of birth, the address?
Howlett: I was born in Prince George County, Virginia.
Interviewer: What was your father's occupation?
Howlett: He worked at DuPont for [inaudible] years.
Interviewer: Do you know what he did?
Howlett: He worked in the laundry department at DuPont.
Interviewer: What was your mother's occupation?
Howlett: Housewife.
Interviewer: Did you have any brothers?
Howlett: Yes, one brother.
Interviewer: How about sisters?
Howlett: One sister.
Interviewer: Were you a middle child? Were you the oldest or the youngest?
Howlett: Yes, I'm the oldest.
Interviewer: When you were in school, did you have kindergarten?
Howlett: No, no kindergarten.
Interviewer: Where did you go to elementary school?
Howlett: It's Blackwell, now. I went to Dunbar Elementary School.
Interviewer: How about junior high or middle school?
Howlett: Didn't have middle school.
Interviewer: Okay, you just had one high school?
Howlett: That's right.
Interviewer: And what high school was that?
Howlett: Old Armstrong [High School] at Prentis and Leigh [Streets], which is Benjamin Graves [Middle School] now. We only had one black high school in the whole city for all of us from all parts of the city everywhere. We went to one school in shifts.
Interviewer: What do you mean by shifts?
Howlett: Seniors and juniors went in the mornings. Freshmen and sophomores went to school in the evening. We had to have two shifts. We went from the whole city of Richmond, everywhere in the city, we went to one school. [At] Prentis and Leigh [Streets], one high school for blacks.
Interviewer: That's very interesting. Did you attend college?
Howlett: No, never did go to college. I was going to school to be a nurse, but I taken sick in high school. I had trouble with my feet and legs and I couldn't walk.
Interviewer: So you didn't finish high school?
Howlett: Didn't finish.
Interviewer: Did you have any occupations?
Howlett: Yes. During that time I was in school, I worked for a Dr. White up here on New Kent Avenue. Then I was a cashier at the theater, and I had to do that in order to go to school. We didn't have any money, so I had to work two jobs to go to school. But by going to school in shifts, I was able to swing it.
Interviewer: Did you have any other occupations once you were out of high school?
Howlett: I worked until I got married. I worked as cashier at the theater. I stayed at that job until I got married.
Interviewer: Once you got married, did you become a housewife or did you have another job?
Howlett: I went to work at another job in war time. [World War II].
Interviewer: What did you do?
Howlett: Made candy, c-a-n-d-y. Like you have a tobacco factory, we made candy. I worked at the factory that made candy. We had government contracts all over the whole United States during war time.
Interviewer: What did your husband do?
Howlett: Well, he stayed in the Army about 5 years overseas, then he worked for Miller & Rhodes [Department Store] all his life, stayed there 37 years. It was a bunch of brothers, and all of them worked for Miller & Rhodes. Even their father worked in Prestwould Apartments, where Mr. Rhodes lived.
Interviewer: What did he do for Miller & Rhodes?
Howlett: Drove a delivery truck.
Interviewer: What is your religious affiliation?
Howlett: Baptist.
Interviewer: Do you have any children?
Howlett: Yes.
Interviewer: How many boys?
Howlett: Two sons.
Interviewer: Any girls?
Howlett: No girls.
Interviewer: How about grandchildren?
Howlett: Four.
Interviewer: Are they boys or girls?
Howlett: Three girls and one boy. There they are right there [indicates some pictures]. And this is my husband [indicates a picture]. Been dead yesterday 23 years. Dropped dead of a massive heart attack 23 years ago. Just brought me out of the hospital expecting me to die and brought me home. He was here two or three days, I was here and he dropped dead of a massive heart attack 23 years yesterday.
Interviewer: He's a nice looking man.
Howlett: Nice guy, too. Could do anything. He could do more than drive a truck. He was a barber, he could do anything. Any type of carpenter work, but it just wasn't any jobs for blacks at that time. You name it, he could do it. But my youngest son, he's the one that can really do kind of anything, by finishing school. He's in school right now. He graduated from Ohio Institute of Technology in electronics, and he was an electronic communication man for VEPCO [Virginia Power Company]. He's in school now, away this month, in Chicago, Illinois. He's in school for a month for the company.
Interviewer: And then after he's finished he'll go right into a job?
Howlett: No, he's working now, but he just has to go away for the company. He goes away every once and a while when anything new comes around. You see, he's in electronics.
Interviewer: So they have to constantly keep up?
Howlett: Yes. And so he's been to Texas, California, Kansas City, two years ago to Philadelphia and this time it's in Chicago, Illinois. Then sometime he'll come back and maybe he'll teach what he has learned.
Interviewer: He's really been all over the country.
Howlett: That's the one I raised by myself--no husband.
Interviewer: That's your youngest?
Howlett: When he was little boy, he was in a cast a whole year. Then I taken sick and they had just taken him out of the cast, and then I went in the hospital. Expected me to die for 2 or 3 weeks. I stayed there and then I came out and his father dropped dead. He had been in a cast a whole year. So I really had it, but I made it.
Interviewer: Well, you have a lot to be proud of.
Howlett: When he went to school, I didn't have any husband. I worked real hard. I took the lowest job in the bank--l went back to work. I took the lowest job there. What is the lowest job that you can take anywhere? Would you all know?
Interviewer: I guess, uh... ?
Howlett: Cleaning the restrooms, that's what I did.
Interviewer: But it was well worth it?
Howlett: I cleaned them--I'm not kidding, they say I cleaned them better than they had seen anybody clean them [laughs]. I had the executive floors, more than anybody else in the bank, and I cleaned them, girl [laughs].
Interviewer: Well, you can come clean mine anytime you want [laughs].
Howlett: When they wanted to move, I didn't want to move. But I could do other things 'cause I told you I worked at the theater and I was cashier there. And I handled things for many days, so I could do other things, but I asked for a j-o-b because my husband was dead and I had to work, so I took any type of job, and I made it good. That's the type of people we are. We'll work, you know what I mean?
Interviewer: Just worked against all odds?
Howlett: All odds.
Interviewer: And still came out ahead?
Howlett: They wanted to make me the first black supervisor when they integrated, but I wasn't particular about it. I didn't want to be over people. I had worked in electoral work at training people, and I didn't want that. My husband had died--too much pressure on him, so I'd rather to have cleaned the bathrooms. See, I cleaned up by preference.
Interviewer: Have you always resided at this residence?
Howlett: No. I have been here 42 years, though.
Interviewer: Where did you live before this residence?
Howlett: Near my church down in a place we called "New Town."
Interviewer: First, we're going to talk about elementary school. You said that you went to Dunbar Elementary?
Howlett: Yes.
Interviewer: How did you get there?
Howlett: Walked.
Interviewer: Was it close to your home, or did you have a long walk?
Howlett: Not too far.
Interviewer: From your first day of school, did your parents and your brothers and sisters impress upon you the importance of education and what it meant?
Howlett: My mother always did that because I knew a lot before I went to school. I had a very smart mother.
Interviewer: What sort of support did you get from them? Did they encourage you in your learning and home work and stuff?
Howlett: Yes.
Interviewer: Did you get support from your church as well?
Howlett: Well, I don't know what to say about that. But I was always a good church person that went to church. Well, school and church just worked together with me. See, we're church people anyway, because I went to church, Sunday school.
Interviewer: But, I mean, when you were at church, did they ever discuss ... ?
Howlett: No, not at that time.
Interviewer: Did you have all black teachers?
Howlett: Yes.
Interviewer: Were they supportive of you?
Howlett: Very, very nice.
Interviewer: Did they make you aware of black history and the outstanding events and the leaders within black history?
Howlett: I think they would impress that in us, even though at that time, anything that the blacks could, of course. The school was named Dunbar Elementary School. That was named after a black person at that time, which Blackwell [as it is called] now is named after one of the professors that was there, Dr. J. H. Blackwell. So they changed it from Paul Lawrence Dunbar to J. H. Blackwell. That's why it's Blackwell School now. That's where that name came from.
Interviewer: They wanted to honor his service to the school?
Howlett: That's right. He was one of the professors there, and then he had a son, a Dr. J. H. Blackwell, Jr. He was a doctor around here in this vicinity, and [his father] was a professor in the school. That's why they named it J. H. Blackwell from Paul L. Dunbar.
Interviewer: So there was a lot of pride there?
Howlett: Yes, and our teachers, they were very good teachers. They taught you very, very well. Everything, discipline. our teachers could do that then. They could spank you, at that time, and nobody said anything. Your parents gave you another one when you got home [laughs], because they respected the teachers to the extent that if they corrected you or spanked you.... I never did get spanked because I always obeyed my parents, and I always have obeyed peoples in authority, I don't care what color you are. If you're an older person, I was taught to obey you. You had been trained that way at home. So there wasn't any problem to go to school and a teacher to correct you.
Interviewer: When did you first learn about racial segregation at the schools?
Howlett: Well, I always was very aware of it. I tell you why I was aware of it. Right there at Cowardin Avenue, at that time that medical building--you probably don't know anything about it--it was Maury [School] down the street and Bainbridge Junior High. Well, I was always aware that... we had to pass those schools going over [across] town to [get to our] school. So, I was very aware then that there was segregation, because we passed Bainbridge Junior School and Maury School to go to Armstrong [High] School. Over [across] town on 7th street was George Wythe [High] school on one side and John Marshall [High School] on the other. We passed all those schools to get to my school at Prentis and Leigh Streets [near] Chamberlayne Avenue. So you know, I vas very aware of segregation all the time.
Interviewer: Did you resent it?
Howlett: No. I did not resent it. We did what we had to do. But I tell you what I did resent. They would send [used] books from Bainbridge, and names were [already] printed in [them], [over] to us at Blackwell and Dunbar. That's [the kind of] a book you received, maybe several pages were torn out. That's what we had to study. Now that was really true. That was really hurting, because sometime I received a book with so many pages torn out I couldn't keep up with my lessons unless I looked in someone else's book. But that's what we received. The leftover books from their schools were sent to us.
Interviewer: Did you have any playmates or know any people of a different race while you were growing up?
Howlett: Yes, we always did. All around here on Hull [Street] were white and black. We actually have been integrated from the neighborhood all my life. That's never been a problem to us. Even when I moved up here, [only] this one street was... black. Everything around here was white 43 years ago. [Both] black and white churches were here.... I've been raised around white people, so it never bothered me how white people are still living around here now. And we've have always lived together. There's a park out here called Carter Jones Playground at Fonticello Park. Our children and everybody [who] grew up [around here] played together. It never was any question with us and we never fought or got along bad. Everybody got along very well, everybody knew each other--black and white. And on Hull Street when I lived down there, whites were all along there. Sometimes when it snowed, and we wasn't able to get over town to school, on Cowardin Avenue all the way up to the intersection, no cars could get up the hill. What they would do is block the street off. Black and white, we would play in the street all day when we couldn't go to school because we couldn't get from here over town to Armstrong School. So we played, black and white, all up and down the street. The white played to themselves and the black to themselves right out here on Hull Street. In the middle of the street we were playing. Nobody fought and nobody bothered each other. We'd talk to each other, but you played with the black and the white played with the white. It was understood that you stayed on your side and they stayed on theirs, but we were friendly and we never fought or had any confusion, all day long, all of us out in the street, black and white.
Interviewer: Did you ever talk about that at home with your parents?
Howlett: No, we never discussed it. That was just something that we accepted and we knew what you did what you had to do. Certainly there was a problem at that time. We disliked it some. Some things you disliked, but what could you do about it? You couldn't do anything about it. I'm serious about that. What could you do?
Interviewer: Do you think that they were getting the same education you were getting?
Howlett: They were getting the better education than we were, you know that, [when] they stayed in school all day and we went in shifts? In the morning at 7-something, I'm on a bus going over to Armstrong School and then I get out by 12. That was rough. That's how I was able to swing two jobs. I was able to swing one with Dr. White up here an New Kent Avenue, go to school and then go back and go to the theater at night. That's why I was able to swing it, because I was going to school in shifts.
Interviewer: So you had to pay for your own bus ticket when you went to high school?
Howlett: [My] own bus ticket, everything. You had to pay for it yourself, and I worked those jobs to get my money to pay. A lot of children over here couldn't go to school because they didn't have money,to buy the tickets. I've been taking care of myself ever since I was 16 years old, by working those jobs and buying my own tickets and going to school. From 16 years old. Now my father and mother gave me food and somewhere to live, but I bought everything else that I had. I'd have something to buy on lay-away and [I'd] pay a dollar or two on a coat and keep on paying a dollar until I'd get it out, and sometime I wore the same coat to church I wore to school, but I was always clean. [At one time] I remember the children laughing at me because my mother would go to the rummage sale or second hand store and buy me a coat, and she would put a hem in it and she'd let it down every year.... And then I remember in my church standing at the front with some of the other children that had more than I had. I had fur on my sleeves. I didn't want to wear the coat because I knew I was looking different, but my mother, she was a very clean neat lady and she was a country lady and you know how that is. Well, so [long as] you was clean and neat, that's all that mattered to her. I was such an obedient person, I wore the coat. I knew the coat didn't look right, and I didn't like the coat, but I wore it to Sunday school. And the children, we would get out in the front on Sunday mornings after Sunday school and buy a peanut block or a mint or something, and stand out there and wait for church. service. One of the boys looked at me and he said, "Elizabeth Atkins. Everybody else have fur around the collar and you have it on your sleeves. Why?" I said, "Because I want it on my sleeves I do not want it on the collar." [Laughs]. Well, the coat was from the rummage sale and my mother had bought it--I had nothing else to wear. So everybody just laughed, [and] I hollered, "Yeah" Everybody laughed. I was so foolish, [but] they couldn't shame me. My heart, I was hurting in here though. I never put any kind of clothes on my children that I hadn't bought [new]--that learned me a lesson. That's why at sixteen I began to buy my own clothes.
Interviewer: When you were in high school, how was that different from elementary school?
Howlett: Well, in elementary school, we had one teacher. When we got to high school, you go to the teachers. That was a difference, from over here to over at Armstrong, that was a great difference. You went to the teachers. I enjoyed it, because you met children from all over the city of Richmond, every part of the city. That's why right now I'm well-known, because I went to school that way. Everywhere I go, I meet up with people that I know because I went to school like that. I don't know whether you're aware of it, but Walter Manning, the funeral home [director], now he and I went to school together, he and his wife. We all were right in school together, his wife and I and all of us..., people from West End, Church Hill, Fulton and the whole city of Richmond. So right now, I don't care where I go in the city of Richmond, I still know people... because we went to school like that. My son--I have one son that works for A&P--and he says many people talk to him and when they see us [together], they say, "Oh, I know her." Then by working at the theater, I was well-known. See, I sold tickets at the theater. That was a big job then. Then I modeled hairstyles for my beautician, and did both of them at the same time. I was a wheeler-dealer [laughs].
Interviewer: When you were in high school with all these different people, were you aware of ability grouping among the different people? Mrs.
Howlett: What do you mean by that?
Interviewer: ... Did they separate you according to your career goals.... whether you were going to do vocational work or going to college?
Howlett: Yes. College preparatory, academic. Yes, you were separate, business or nursing--just whatever you feel you were going into. Yes, you were separated.
Interviewer: And you were nursing?
Howlett: I was going into nursing.
Interviewer: What made you decide to do that?
Howlett: I was gifted from God to be a nurse. I know that now. I never actually finished schooling, but I can still do so much in nursing. My last patient in between my jobs was on Monument Avenue, a lady's husband from VCU. I was recommended from Richmond Memorial Hospital. I took care of him. Not only him, I have taken care of different people. I am gifted from God to do that. I took care of my mother and my father. I took care of another lady on Midlothian [Turn]pike. I took care of the man on Monument Avenue until he passed [away]. I could bathe him, lay him in the bed; if he fall dowm I could take him and put him the bed and bathe him and clean his fingernails, toenails and take him right to bed. I can still do all that today. That's a gift from God. My grandmother was that way. She was a regular nurse. Then my mother was gifted, then I'm gifted. I'm gifted from God to do that.... I can take care of anybody.
Interviewer: When did you realize that you had that gift?
Howlett: All my life. All my life I've been gifted that way. And I have done it. I took care of my parents. Nobody never went to a nursing home. They lived right across the street. I took care of them 10 years. I quit my job to take care of them. I took care of another lady, [whose] daughter deserted her, on Midlothian Pike, [the daughter is] a school teacher up in Washington [who] deserted her mother]. I took care of her... [almost] three years. Did everything for her, and took care of this house [my husband was dead then], and took care of my son. I'm gifted from God to do it, and that's why I believe that God has blessed me tremendously.
Interviewer: When you were in high school--I know you worked really hard to stay in school--did your parents support you with encouragement?
Howlett: Yes.... My mother and father both were that type. They encouraged us to go to school.
Interviewer: Were the teachers in your high school black, also?
Howlett: They were all black.
Interviewer: Were they the same as your elementary school, they were real supportive?
Howlett: Very nice people, very nice and supportive.
Interviewer: Were they good teachers as far as their learning?
Howlett: In those days you had everything to do as teachers. Our black teachers in that day, they were mothers, they were everything to you at school. They were very good, the average teacher in that day.... [Susie B.] Lewis that you are going to interview, she taught me at Armstrong [High] School--she taught me.... I can't remember now if she taught English or what, but I went to her in high school. She is my husband's cousin, too. Most people get me mixed [up] with her. They'll say "Oh, how are you do, Ms. Lewis?" And I know who they are talking about. She retired from Armstrong teaching. The new Armstrong is on 31st street, but she taught at old Armstrong when I was there. She was a young lady right out of college, then. [Mrs. Hewlett resembles Mrs. Lewis. Ed.]
Interviewer: When you were in high school, did they teach you anything about black history or the leaders?
Howlett: We were taught a little something. They taught you what they knew at that time. They put emphasis on it. Some of the teachers put a lot of emphasis on different things, you know what I mean? They were very good. Made you aware of different things, to do your best in any endeavor. Anything that you tried to do, be the best. That's one thing about me now. I get angry with myself. I'm a perfectionist in everything and it worries me sometimes. My oldest son says, "You're such a perfectionist. You have to do everything just so for me." I'm that way with myself, and I demand that out of other people. That's why I don't like to be over top of people too much, because I really demand a lot. I give it to myself, and I demands it back, you see. You cut grass for me, don't half cut it--you'll go over it again! I'm that way. Yes, my sons will tell you that.
Interviewer: Did your teachers make you aware of the racial tensions in the Richmond community?
Howlett: It wasn't spoken about too much during that time. It was something we just accepted. We knew it was there, but you accepted it. What could you do about it? When you don't have any money, nowhere to go? We'd just rather face facts. If I have to come to you for a job or money, what's the need of fighting you? Isn't it better to get along with you and love you? You get more that way.
Interviewer: Well, was everybody like you then?
Howlett: No, not everybody.
Interviewer: Did some people have problems?
Howlett: Some people had problems adjusting. I never had any adjusting. See, if anybody in authority--I don't care who you are--if you are authority, I give you respect. It's common sense: why fight a person that can help you? I've always been helped and respected, and people treated me very nicely all my life. I don't need to fight. I don't have anything to fight about, and being a Christian, why would you fight? They said turn the other cheek. I don't mean nobody walk up and smack me and hit upside the head, but I mean use common sense. There's no need to fight a person that has authority. I'll tell what used to hurt me. I used to go in places and I'd see [signs posted about] "white ladies" and "colored women." That hurt. White ladies and colored women! We wasn't colored ladies. You couldn't sit in that bus out there on the street, not in front of a white person. If you sat in front of a white person, they'd come and ask you to move. But I was tough, I'd exchange seats. I paid the same fare. Now, [I'd say], "I'll exchange seats with this person, tell them to move up front and I'll sit back here, but I paid the same fare. Now ask them to move." Most people [would] get up and move: "Don't you sit in front of a white person." That was true-- they'd stop the bus and come right out here [she indicates in front of her face] and tell you to get up if you sit in front of a white person. And I paid the same thing! I would always say I'm going to be like Rosa Parks, I'll exchange seats. And most times the white person would get up and weld exchange seats. But we won't have no argument because I paid my fare, too. You see?
Interviewer: Even though it was very frustrating, did you feel that it would ever get better in time.... that if you just stayed strong and did as much as you could?
Howlett: Yes, and pray about it. I've always been very aware that there's a divine force, which is Jesus Christ. I've always been aware of that from [the time I was] a little girl. My grandparents and all were very good church people, religious, clean-cut people from their background. Always went to church and Sunday school. Weld go to church service [and] prayer meeting. I even go to prayer meeting now. I was always aware that things would be better one day, and I prayed for it myself.
Interviewer: You were... ?
Howlett: Very aware that it would get better.
Interviewer: And that you felt what you should get the most that you could at that time?
Howlett: That's right.
Interviewer: So that in the future you... ?
Howlett: I'd be prepared to know how to handle, you know, to work with it.
Interviewer: So there was definitely an incentive to work hard?
Howlett: To work hard. And then my brother and my sister and everybody seen that they all went to school as far as they could. That's why I worked. To help my brother and I go to school at Armstrong. I worked to buy the tickets to help us. That's why I worked those jobs. He ended up working in an office down [at] Bellwood--he just retired. He did well. That's true, we struggled very hard. Then it got a little better by my father working at DuPont. You know, DuPont's a pretty nice company, and things got better and better by him working [because] he was a constantly good worker. He had a nice garden. We had chickens, we had plenty to eat because he was a country man, [and] he raised them. So we always did pretty fair, but it was hard work.
Interviewer: It must have made you really appreciate the opportunities you did have.
Howlett: My husband's been dead 23 years and you see what I have done. I have raised a fatherless child, was sick, went back to work [and] couldn't work but 4 or 5 hours a day because I was very sick and the doctor [said] I could never make 8 hours again. I've lived 23 years [since] and I've done pretty well, I think, with the help of God, but it's been hard work. I took care of my mother and father 10 years, sick, and then my husband was sick. He's been dead 23 years, so I don't know anything about married life. I wish I could enjoy a nice married life, because I was busy educating my child and But both my sons have built brand new homes from the ground up. Both of them. The youngest built one before he left here. The other one sold one for $75,000 four or five years ago, and he built another one--the [son] that I ... raised by myself. So I'm not bragging on them, but God has tremendously blessed us, but we've struggled hard for it. So I'm here [at this house] not because I have to, but I'm here because I want to be. And then I'm in the neighborhood, helping in the neighborhood. We cosponsored the senior citizens home, and we worked with the Catholics down here. They are going to put an extension on the nursing home, Mr. Stovall's place around here. Then I was one of the first blacks to do electoral work from South Richmond--one of the first blacks when they integrated in 1965. I was one of the first blacks paid and trained by the city of Richmond to do electoral work in the city. So I really have contributed a lot and I'm filling you in. I'm not in here because I want to be, I'm in here because I want to help the people, and that's why I'm staying in here. I don't mean I have a lot, but my son wants me to move in with him. He has a lot of land, put three rooms in for me to move in with him. But I don't drive, [and] I won't be able to get to my church. I go to meetings [at] 10:30 in the day, [then] I go to meetings [at] 12:00. I'm always involved, but if I get out there, and I can't do things, I'll be dead in 6 months. So I'd rather stay here.
Interviewer: To do what you want to do?
Howlett: Uh, huh. So, I'm still involved in helping the people as much as I can. I made it. God blessed me, and I want to help somenne else.
Interviewer: Going back to desegregation and segregation--what was your first experience with desegregation?
Howlett: Something that stands out in mind that caused a great scene. Our church, all the churches in South Richmond, would go to Buckroe Beach or Virginia Beach. And we would all meet at the Main Street Station. All churches from South Richmond, weld go on a Monday in August. And we had gone to the beach, and you know when you come back, you're tired. Everybody was getting on the bus at 14th and Main, and the bus was crowded, you know, all of us coming from the beach. And there was white people scattered on the bus. Well, we were sitting anywhere we could find seats. Well, my husband and I and my oldest son, we happened to sit in front of some white people. The bus driver came back and told my husband and I and my son, "Get up, and stop sitting in front of those white people!" on the bus, you know that's degrading to a man and his family, to tell a man that. And so, I'm going to always speak up. I always had a big mouth, but I'd do it in a nice way. I said, "You ask those people to move because we have paid our fares just like they paid their's. Now, you ask them to move, [and] we'll exchange seats with them." They got up and moved and we exchanged seats. So everybody on the bus--it was full of blacks--said we'll throw everybody off, bus driver, everybody, we'll throw them all off. All the blacks got angry. I said. "Wait. Let me tell everybody on the bus something. We are a church. We do not do it that way. That's all right. See, you all are bad people. We don't like that... talk.... You're jurt as much as those white people." That [experience] was very degrading. In public, that's one of the degradingest, hurting things I've seen in a long [time]. It really hurt my husband. You know that's degrading to talk to a person like that. The bus driver was really wrong. He could have did it in a nicer way, but he'd better thank God there was me, a nice black person, that was on the bus. Held have been killed. I know that I stopped them from killing him. That was the worst degrading thing I had been around in a long time. That really hurts--it stabs. But being a Christian, you hold that in you.
Interviewer: Have you noticed it getting better, though? When did you notice that it wasn't that degrading?
Howlett: People began to sit where they wanted on the bus. I began to notice that, but what I would do anyway, I always went as far back in the bus as I could get--always. I knew blacks were supposed to sit in the back. When I got on the bus, naturally up here, you know, you get up here [indicating the front of the bus]. But I filled up from the back. You see what I mean? Go to the back, that's where you're supposed to be. But sitting in the back, that's what I always did. Pay my fare, but I go to the extreme... I never was a person that liked an argument and confusion, so I do what I know I have to do. And I never got into too many arguments. That's the first time I ever got into an argument on the bus. Course now, I am a person that will speak up, but most times I try to speak up in a nice way and try to treat a person right. And I demand that--l treat you right and I demand to be treated right from you. I give you respect, I demand respect. I've always given it and I demand that from people. I give it and demand it. And then I always worked in the public. I worked with Dr. White and I worked at the theater and always worked in taking census. I retired from working... [for] the state of Virginia, where Wilder [is] right now, in the capitol, but I retired. So I have always worked in the public. So being in the public, it's just something I was trained to handle... people in all my work. So, that's nothing to me. And I'd meet people all over the world. You see, I associated with a church.... [and] I grew up with people [from] all over the world. So it's nothing to me, I've always been around a lot of people and different people. Just like down at the Capitol, sometimes the hostess would say "Mrs. Howlett, come on go to the Governor's floor tonight; Mrs. Howlett, come over here, [we] have some tourists here, we don't have anybody to take them through the Capitol. You come on and do that." So I ... I was always a person on a staff you could use anywhere, and when they found out I had done electoral work for the city, they said "What are you?" [I said,] "I used to be a brass cleaner there." "You don't need to be a brass cleaner". I said, "That's what I wanted to do." When I was on the staff I could do anything and work anywhere, and I met with all kinds of people, so it don't bother me. I've been under a lot of governors--Robb, Dalton, all of them right down at the Capital, I was right there with them. Governor Wilder, I knew him when he was just a Senator. He was one of the nicest blacks we had; and Scott from Newport News or Norfolk, very nice person. When he [Wilder] was elected governor, that really was saying something because he is lovely person. So I've just been thrown with people from all over, so it doesn't affect me one way or another. I see people, I don't see color. Never have.
Interviewer: Do you recall how community leaders back then handled segregation and desegregation? Were you aware of what was going on with the leaders of the community?
Howlett: Yes. I've been always very aware.
Interviewer: I mean, what they were doing?
Howlett: We had a minister here named Dr. Ransom. He was a professor in the seminary [at Virginia Union University]. We looked up to him. I think we took him as a god, almost, in the black community. That's [why] I was elected in his wife's place when I did electoral work.. They wanted his wife... to be first, but she was an older lady and so they asked me would I take the appointment in her place. But we looked up to him. He taught at the seminary, a professor there. And he was one of the brilliant, I would call him, black leaders. Lost people in those days, you'd look up to the best educated person of a race, and he was a professor and preached at First Baptist Church. But we looked up to him and he was a very nice person. Well we looked up to him and we kind of followed [what] they were training. Naturally, being a good leader like that and a teacher and a preacher, he taught you the right thing and the correct way of doing things. So, we over here [in this neighborhood], its like a little town, we were very aware of what was going on. Like the boycott at different places. He said, "Now, you all like working at Thalhimer's and Miller & Rhoads and you know that's your job. Don't go out there boycotting and messing up your job." You know, he would tell you things like that. Use common sense and discretion. And you were trained better than the people are doing now. No violence, no fighting. You see, that's what we were taught. That's why it's surprising to me to see how the young blacks has changed to this violent fighting and doing and killing and shooting. We didn't have that. That has really bothered [me] a lot, because back there, we looked up to the preachers and the leaders to judge us like Martin Luther King--no violence.... You weren't used to much fighting and confusion.... We were trained in the right way how to handle a thing. You see vhat I'm talking about? Inter-viewer: Yes.
Howlett: So, you had no violence, and you respected our leaders.
Interviewer: Why do you think that has changed so much?
Howlett: Well, they were good leaders. I feel like, now, in a lot of the cases, some of the leaders are bought off. You buy them off. Give them a big car and a nice house on the hill. Let them control a thousand or 5000 blacks, that's wrong. We have that going on. It's right here in Richmond. You have that in City Council. See, I did electoral work and I know a lot about it. I had a big mass meeting last night. We have a lot things going on that's not right. This redistricting is not right for us in South Richmond. See, I'm very aware of that. I worked with that type of stuff.... but I'm not working too much in it now because I just don't want to work in it. Mr. Richardson asked me last night would I be on his committee. I don't want to be on it. I've served my time. Let younger people work in it. That's what's happening to the city now, and a lot of people are aware of what's going on. The young people do not know how to handle it. They don't know that you pray about it and talk to the Lord about it. They are taking it in their own hands. Martin Luther King said "No violence." They have gotten discouraged, all this foolishness and guns out here. They go and demand what they want, as they call it, but you cannot get it that way.... When I did the electoral work, I tell you the truth, I never took anything under the table and nobody could ever buy me off. I know some doctors sent for me one day when I was doing electoral work. I was appointed by the city and they sent for me. I didn't know what they wanted, so I called my boss. I said, "Is anybody supposed to do this." He said, "No, Ms. Howlett. They are setting you up. Don't you go." They sent the other secretary out. You see, I don't know what they wanted, but I don't do that. I don't let anybody put me under pressure or take any money under the table. I don't do that type stuff. I'm a Christian too, and I have to be true to myself first, because my God knows whether I'm true or not. The city appointed me, then my people look forward to me to being a Christian and a truthful person. Why? I cat never be high and happy and in control of a thnusand or 5000 of my black people and treat them any kind of way. I can't do that, and I am one that didn't do that. But you got a lot of people here that are doing that, and I know some of them. We look at all that trouble we kept having with the school board. Everybody we ... in -- you know what it is, I know exactly what it is. So we are very aware of certain things that are going on in this city and its unrest. The young people don't know how to handle it.... They don't know that prayer and time... [tape ends].
Interviewer: [Inaudible] ... facilities did you have?
Howlett: We only had at that time two buildings--the old building and the new building. No, not particular. I don't know whether the welfare [people] or who said... that they would serve underprivileged children a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and a carton of milk from downstairs.
Interviewer: You didn't have a cafeteria?
Howlett: No cafeteria.
Interviewer: How about a library?
Howlett: We may have had some books there, but no special place as a library. We didn't have any of those things. We just took the handovers from Bainbridge School and those schools that came to us, anything handed over to us or given to us. No, we didn't have any libraries or anything.
Interviewer: When you went to Armstrong High School, what were your favorite subjects that were taught?
Howlett: They gave a little bit of everything you were supposed to have had--math, geometry, algebra, Latin, French and Spanish and things like that, but it was just [in a] shorter space and time [to] have it [because of the shift system]. Sewing, nursing.... but it was just a short time. How much could you get in a little time like that, you see what I mean? The subjects were there, and some people got all that and some made it. There were a lot of people that made it. Children were smart. We went to school and we went there to learn. We knew the odds were against us, but we had so many people that made it.
Interviewer: What did you enjoy the most about school?
Howlett: I just enjoyed going to school, learning as a whole, learning any and everything. I just enjoyed it. That's why I did everything in school.
Interviewer: How about the building. Was the building an older building? Did it have... ?
Howlett: What do you mean--which school?
Interviewer: Well, Dunbar.
Howlett: Dunbar had two--one old building and one we called the new building then--an old and a new building, but they still wasn't up to par.
Interviewer: Did you have heating in the winter and... ?
Howlett: Yes, they had heating.
Interviewer: And air conditioning?
Howlett: No air conditioning. They had heat. No air conditioning. we raised the windows. Now Armstrong was a little better. Naturally, that was a high school, [and it] was a little better school.
Interviewer: Did you have a cafeteria and library at Armstrong?
Howlett: There was a library there. I don't remember a cafeteria. [The tape is interrupted here. Apparently, it was accidentally turned off. The sound picks up with a discussion of the racial composition of the faculty when Mrs. Howlett attended Armstrong High School. Ed.1
Interviewer: White? Mr. Merrill was white?
Howlett: White. No, he was white. Mr. Merrill was a white principal. Armstrong [administration] was white. Mr. Townsend and Mr. Beall, [the] assistants--all of them were white when I was in school.
Interviewer: White administrators?
Howlett: Everybody was white. All administrators were white.
Interviewer: All the teachers were black?
Howlett: All the teachers were black, but all the principals were white. I remember that. Mr. Merrill and Mr. Townsend and Mr. Beall at Armstrong. No blacks.
Interviewer: What were the approximate dates that you attended Dunbar?
Howlett: You'll have to help me out. From 70 years old, take 6 from that.
Interviewer: Late [1920s] to mid [1930s] for elementary school? And then mid 30's to early 40's for high school?
Howlett: Something like that.
Interviewer: This is getting back to the segregation. In 1954, the U.S. Supreme Court, in the famous case of Brown v. Board of Education in Topeka. Kansas, handed down the decision that segregated schools were in violation of the Constitution. When and how did you learn about this?
Howlett: Hearing it on the radio and reading my paper and keeping up with it. I was always aware and I kept up with all of it.
Interviewer: What difference did it make in your life?
Howlett: It made a lot of difference. That was something due to us and it should have happened years ago. See, I was under everything in segregation. Naturally, I knew there was something wrong. Every man and woman is a woman or man. Treat them fairly and squarely. I've always felt that way. That was something we were due, I felt like.
Interviewer: Did you discuss this case with your friends and family?
Howlett: Well, we talked about it. Most people talked about it. We were glad that something was being done about it.
Interviewer: Do you have any strong, vivid memories of this time period?
Howlett: Well, I paid close attention to Thurgood Marshall, Oliver Hill, [Samuel?] Tucker and all of them. Segregation and all down South was different schools that integrated and all like that. Yeah, I paid close attention to that. We all did as blacks, as something due to us a long time ago. Somebody stand in the door and won't let you go in the door of a school, that's awful. Take old books and some mess and throw it over at us, how do we feel? We couldn't do anything about it. That should have been done years ago. Yeah, we were very aware of it, but we fought it in the courts, not in our own hands, because we were always taught non-violence, and we went by that. That's why we got through it so nicely. [But] people are fighting now. You don't accomplish anything fighting. We were taught let's do it by voting. That's another thing I want tell you. When I was down at the Capitol, we had a lot of girls there from Virginia State College, [Virginia] Union and all, working, and they was non-voters! I got behind everybody working in the Capitol that wasn't voters. You had to pay poll taxes in my day in order to vote. I was thinking about an incident this morning. I don't whether it is untimely to speak about it. Way back there you had to pay poll taxes to vote. I never will forget it. My boy was about 5 or 6 years old. My mother had taken sick and I stopped work for a while. I got a leave of absence. He went to Blackwell School then. And this fellow, Mr. Reed, came by and said "Ms. Howlett, are you working?" I told him, "No." He said, "Well, we need some people to work around the polls. Are your taxes paid." So I told him no, they wasn't. He said, "Ms. Howlett, you don't pay taxes?" I said, "I don't have money to pay them." So he said, "Well, I tell you what I am going to let you do. I'm going to let you work and make this money." I said, "Now, I don't want to interfere with Dr. Ransom running for the House of Delegates." He was our first black person running. He [Reed] said, "No, Ilia not going to let you work for anyone like that." I think this guy, now head of corrections, I think he was running during that time. So I worked for hire, and I don't know whether it was $15 or $20 1 made. He said, "Now take that money and go and pay your poll taxes." So I took all that money and went and paid my taxes up so I could register to vote. He said, "Now if anybody come and say anything to you, I'm not going to know anything about it," because I Wasn't supposed to be working [at the pools] without my taxes being paid. "But I'm not going to know anything about it. I trust you to your honor. Make your money and then go and pay your poll taxes and register and vote. And then I want you to get everybody in your house to do the same thing." And I began to do that. So one person, he helped in that way to encourage me to pay my tax and let me make the money to pay them. Meanwhile, I encouraged so many other people. I began to work with them and got almost all blacks that I knew, if I come in contact, to pay your poll tax and register and vote. See, black people didn't have any money to pay the taxes. So you couldn't vote unless you register and pay your poll taxes. So that was against us, and Most blacks wasn't aware of that. I always admired him [Reed] for that. And he said, "NOW they are going to check up on you." And some of the people checked up on me. "You put her out there, you knew she hadn't paid her taxes," [they said]. Well, I really hadn't paid. But he said, "I didn't know anything about it." He told a white lie, or a story, but I helped so many other people. He knew I was that type of person that would help other people. Anything I worked in, I always tried to help other people. Most blacks wasn't aware about paying your tax. And then they made it so hard. You thought, "Oh, what do I have to do when I go register?" see, so many older people was so aware--if you could read and write you know you could go over there and register, but they didn't realize that. I had to work with a lot of them like that. You'd be surprised; they were just fearful.
Interviewer: Well, this is another case. In Bradley v. Richmond Public Schools in 1972, ... Merhige, a judge in the federal district court here in Richmond, ordered Richmond, Henrico and Chesterfield to create one large school system. The Court of Appeals overturned this decision and busing soon came to Richmond. How do you think this affected the community... ?
Howlett: Well, most people felt at that time, if that was the only way to make everything equal on both sides, that they, well, bus the children to different areas and neighborhoods. They felt that they would get a better education that way. I think people went for that.
Interviewer: How did you feel, though?
Howlett: Well, at that time, I practically felt the same way.
Interviewer: Based on your experience, what do you think has been the most important effects of racial desegregation on Richmond Schools... ?
Howlett: Yes, equal opportunity and advantages, I think. You know, I thought that was wonderful, not to base a child on the color of his skin, but give him the same education. If that child can be a doctor or lawyer or whatever, if he has the ability, treat him the same way. All children are alike.
Interviewer: What do you feel are the-biggest misconceptions that people today have about school in your time?
Howlett: Can you break it down a little more?
Interviewer: Well, take your time. Do you believe we have certain ideas about the way that it was for you in school? I mean is there anything that you want to clear up and say it's not like this, it was this way. Do you think we have anything wrong ... with the way that it was for you when you were in school?
Howlett: Everything was wrong. I think everything was wrong back then. We didn't have libraries, we didn't have cafeterias and... good books. A lot of things we didn't have. Yeah, I think it's so much better now than in my time. We made out with what we had, but it was rough back then. I see a lot of change. Some of the children aren't taking advantage of the opportunities or advantages they have. If I wasn't my age, I would go back to school myself. Children have good opportunities and advantages now to be what you want. The technical center, if your not academic. Now my son really wanted to be a doctor, but after his father died, he went into electronics. He went to George Wythe a half day and went to the Technical Center half a day and he has made it. Then the school hired him to work on their equipment. He was hired because his father was dead and he worked in the evenings. So he had the opportunities and advantages that he wouldn't have had years ago.
Interviewer: Can you think of any other significant changes that have occurred throughout your lifetime, like in the schools?
Howlett: Yes, I see a lot. I see a great change.
Interviewer: Tell me some things that you've noticed. That you notice even with your children that they had different from you.
Howlett: Books. They were offered so many different advantages and different subjects, some of everything different in the school than they were in my time. My children had a lot of advantages. Now my oldest boy wasn't college material, so he took business theory and took up a trade at Maggie Walker School .... But my youngest son is college material, you see what I mean. So I can see there was an advantage there for each child. It was a great advantage there that wouldn't have been in my day.
Interviewer: Do you think that, because your school was segregated, your teachers pushed you harder to achieve more? Do you think children today are told to strive as much to succeed because there is no great barrier there anymore?
Howlett: I think it's a little different. I think we were taught in our day to strive and work harder, even though we were under disadvantages. Teachers were good then, they were so good. I remember so many of them. They taught you how to strive and take advantage of everything at that time, even though we had it low. They worked hard with you. They really worked hard.... and I think now, I don't know whether the teachers are pushing the children quite as hard. I'll tell you another thing--this is my own opinion--[but] I don't believe that white teachers push the blacks like a black teacher would push a black child. I don't know whether there's fear there, or just what it is. That's my concern. A black teacher will push you. I don't know whether the white teachers are pushing their black [students] like the older black teachers were pushing the children.
Interviewer: So you got extra special attention from people who could identify with what you were going through when you were young?
Howlett: That's right, when we were young. I think I hear my children speak about it with my little [grand]children. I think my little grandgirl here, she has a white teacher, I think, this year. She had a black teacher last year. Now we can see the difference. The black teacher pushed my grandchild a little more. Seems there are different little things that we detect under this white teacher that wasn't [there with] the black, you see what I mean? I think they really have a tendency to let the children sometimes get away with little things that a black teacher wouldn't have let that child get away with. Most times they were--you know, the PTAs and all--you can just about judge the parents. Now, that black teacher would contact us [if the grandchild was] doing something that we don't like....
Interviewer: Do they try to be more of a role model?
Howlett: That's right. I hear my son and my daughter-in- law discuss this white teacher, the difference they can see. Not that the teacher isn't a good teacher, but I don't think they push the black children like they should sometime. I don't know what it is that causes that, but I look back... [and] I think, now I don't know how this child... [does in] school under white teachers, but I'm thinking the old black teachers would [have] pushed that child. That's what I feel. I could be wrong, but I think they would push that child. I don't know how the white teacher thinks, [if it's] "I'm getting ready to retire and I'm just not going to worry with them" or what. But they say teaching school is right rough today. They say it's very rough. I hear it all the time. Teachers came out of teaching. So, I don't know. Some people say they are not going to let them worry to death, or just what it is. I imagine it's rough in there now. So I can see the difference when I hear them talk about my grandchildren.
Interviewer: Do you think it would be advantageous to try to encourage more black adults to be role models in the schools for black children? Do you think it Would be better to still have a lot of black teachers in schools to help the black children?
Howlett: I could be wrong, but I think so. See, we know what we have struggled [with], where we carne from, how hard it has been, and we see advantage for our children. They have a good advantage. sometime, if you talk to that child or work with that child and show interest in that child, you might bring that child around. I imagine, with the average white like you all, you all don't know what we went through and the disadvantages we had. So this is just a child, but sometimes you can watch that child, the child has good potential, [and] you can see it in that child. I see a little girl around here, [and] I wish I could take her in my arms. I wish I could. Sometimes you can see good things in children, but if you had somebody to take interest in that child ... ? Sometimes, I think some blacks can see those things; I know the older ones could. This is a good child here, just work with this child just a little bit.
Interviewer: They could relate?
Howlett: Yeah, that's right. That's the way I feel, maybe because I'm from the old school, [but] when you have gone through the same things, you tend to think alike, or you know it's been hard. That's what I instilled in all my children. I talked about how hard things were, and I instilled it in them. I instilled certain things in my children [such as] you just don't go around and get babies out of wedlock. Certain things you just don't do, and I taught my children those type of things myself. So, I don't mean to put a lot on you, but I think [in the old days] when you told them, "That's not the right way," [in effect] you had a mother and father. Every child needs a mother and father. Relate to your child and sit down and talk to your children. I can show examples why I'm saying this to you: my oldest [had gotten so he] couldn't spell at all .... Something happened to him. One of the teachers that taught him, I went back to her and told her--I cried because something happened in the school. The principal wasn't paying attention to what I was saying and she said, "I taught him. You take him to Richmond Memorial Guidance Clinic and find out what happened." He was struck with a truck. He had fear in him. He was so fearful of crossing the street. You see, suppose somebody like that hadn't told me how to work with that. I got it -out of him, too, and sat right at that table there and tutored him myself, taught him how to spell, broke his words down in syllables, and worked with him special. See, some of the teachers do the children like that. Then when he went to high school, [we] got a [young woman] that taught--she was working for Virginia Union--to tutor him in high school after I had my other baby. So, I'm just saying that sometimes you can see certain things in children, and a little special help or attention can help a child. Now I could be wrong, anything that you do and at least try to go to school. If you can't, go into the trade field. I recommend that for the young people, black and white, especially our blacks: stop being a dropout and [causing] teenage pregnancy, and go to school, and I think that will solve problems--a lot of them. The more they go to school, the more intelligent they are and they [will] follow along with [good] people, and they [will] learn. You take some of these girls, teenage mothers.... You got a teenage child--14, 13, and 12 years-- everybody having children. It's just a cycle on down the line, because nobody in education... knew if I get another baby, get on welfare and get more money. You get a job, you don't get a baby! You can get anything you want [if you] get some education. It's a lot in it for the blacks. Everybody couldn't go to school like I did because they didn't have the initiative that I had to go to school. See, I pushed myself and I worked very hard, [and] that's why I was able to [go to] school. From 16 years old, taking care of myself, it was rough. I know a lot of girls didn't ever go to Armstrong School, not from over here, [because] they didn't have the money, they didn't have clothes, they didn't have things to go to school. But they have made it and done pretty well. But it's not that way now. You have different opportunities and advantages now. You need to stay in school, and I recommend that because our blacks are really falling out of school often. I see a lot of it around these projects and places like this. It's a cycle that's awful for the blacks. We thought it was something good to give us [the projects,] somewhere decent to live, but it's awful. I'm in a lot of meetings now about this. We want to do something to help the people, but it's a very hard thing to do. We just don't know what to do. I'll tell you another thing. In a black neighborhood, you really need more black cops. They understand the people. I'll give you an example. My pocketbook was taken in August, right up here on Midlothian Pike. it was carelessness. A boy took his hand and put it in my pocket. Just walked up beside me. He thought I was from that Senior Center Home up there, and he said "Where do you live?" So I didn't say anything. So then he took my bag. I said, "I don't need any help, young fellow," but the spirit told me right then that something was wrong. I forgot; I had made a mistake and put my wallet in my pocket, and he saw it. Just carelessness. He just walked right up behind me and took my wallet out. He ran, and I ran behind him. See, I know a little speech that works' so I said, "Take the money out of the wallet, drop the pocketbook on the ground." He run about a block, and I was right behind him. "Take the money out of the wallet and drop the wallet on the ground." I was running, screaming and hollering, and I raised more devil than a little out there. They told us to yell if something like that happened. He ran right down here in my neighborhood. I didn't know where he was from. He was from out at Blackwell, because nobody around here bothers me. He got down here, and as I came down the street, I told [everybody]. I said, "Somebody snatched my wallet." I was a little calmer about it by this time. God sent our minister, a black minister, and his van stopped in the middle street out here. I got to tell you all this to get to the point: the minister got out and said, "What's wrong." I say, "A young fellow snatched my wallet." He said, "I knew he had done something. He went right around that church." He said, "You come here, simmer down, and come stand right here. I have a telephone in my van." He called the cops, and two came, two white cops, and it wasn't nothing to the boy. The white cop was writing. one lady yelled and said, "I know who he is. I know exactly who he is. I know his people. I know who he is." ... of the people cared out. They said, "Why don't you take her back around? The people said they knew who the boy was." He kept writing. So, I was upset, but I said [to the policeman], "Young fellow, what's your name?" I got all the information and wrote it down. Several people came up. They walked with me back around the church and thought maybe he had thrown my wallet out there because my ... keys and everything was in it to this door here and all. And so I told the little cop, I said, "See that boy standing there?" See, I'm trained to handle to fights with people in the day and once I lay my eyes on you I know who you are. See that boy right there? He was with the boy that snatched my wallet. See the boy standing right there, he stood there and he heard everything that was said." That why I said the average black would notice things different. I told him, "You see this boy right here?" He stood there to hear 611 the information being given. I said, "He was standing with the boy that snatched my wallet." [The boy said] "No, I wasn't!" I said, "Yes, you were." [To the policeman, I said], "You should grab this boy right here." The cop didn't pay me any `ttention. Wouldn't go back around [the church] there either, no white cop. Now a black cop would have paid attention to that. So I got all that inforlation, I brought it on home. Several people came up. one of my boys was down at the church, the one in electronics, he was putting a system in the church. They went to my other boy and all of there came here, and some of the neighbors came in with them. My boy got right on the phone and called, and they sent the cops up here. He said, "Well, why didn't you take my mother back there? You didn't handle it right." [One of the cops said] "That place is drug infested." [My son] said, "You're a cop and you've got nerve enough to tell me it's drug infested and you know that? You did not handle it right!" Now a black cop would have handled it differently. He [the white policeman] didn't care. All he did was write. So a black cop would have known how to handle it and he would have paid attention to what I said. When... [the police] come in here like that, ...[they] need a cop on Clarkton, ...a cop on Midlothian, ...a cop on 27th and... a cop here [on this street], because [the crooks] are going to run through here. No one cop can handle this stuff around here. You need a cop when you get a call. Something went on not too long ago, about 2 weeks or so ago. We are trained--see I go to these meetings called... [inaudible]. We'd been given a [phone] number, and I called about something I saw. Shooting all around the house. It was a wonder I hadn't gotten shot. "Lady, so and so'..?" [they asked]. I said, "You're not supposed to ask me any questions. You just send someone up here. Don't ask me any questions, you're not supposed to do that." "Lady, so and so ... ?" [they asked again]. Must have thought I was going to slip up and call my name or who I am, and they [the criminals] would have somebody here at your door, they'd kill you. I said, "You're not supposed to do that. You just send someone up here. Send one little cop." They can't do nothing like that. A black [is needed] and [they] send a white. They [whites] cannot do nothing in these neighborhoods. I know what I'm talking about. That's some trouble. I don't know why they are doing it, and they will not listen to what you're saying, because nobody really cares what happening. There's a senior citizens home up here on 27th Street. I called the Chief [of Police, Mr. Tapscott], he cosponsored it and got it in to Washington to get the federal grant for it. We cosponsored and brought it in. NOW they say that's why it happened to me, because I'm not afraid to talk. We asked for more protection for the senior citizens. [The robber] thought I was from the home. They've been robbing those people and they [the senior citizens] are afraid to speak about it. That's why he walked up to me like that, he thought I was one of them. They've been robbing at the Blackwell neighborhood, and now they are up in here. [The police] need to patrol better. They need black cops in here that knows how to really handle it. Those whites, they are really afraid. I know that they are afraid, but you see, one cop cannot handle [it]. [The criminals are] going to run from Midlothian Pike all through in here. What can you do with them? Like I told Tapscott, when you talk to them [the officers], they don't listen to you. So it tells me nobody's caring. That's why people are taking the law into their own hands, shooting and killing. Nobody's paying attention to what you're saying. That's what a lot of the trouble is. I don't mean to talk you to death, [but] I saw [it] when that happened to me.... My boy had to change the locks on the door and everything. Had to change my locks and all. [The robber] took my pocketbook with all my keys [and] medical [things]. I had my good wallet with all my identification and everything in it. So I'm saying that it's very sad out here now and looks like nobody really cares. It's sad. I just don't know what is going to happen now. Black is on black, and most of them dropouts coming out of school, and nobody cares. Now, this is another thing: a cop came here [one morning] last year. I went to the door, and he said, "Lady, do you know this young fellow here." [There was] one cop at the gate and one at the door with a young fellow. I said,"Yes, he lives across the street. He lives right in that house." He said, "Well, we got a call that he was crawling in the window, breaking in a house, and we caught ...
[End of Transcript.]
Questions
Index of Oral History Transcripts - African-American Richmond:
Educational Segregation and Desegregation.
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