[The interviewers decided not to include initial biographical information on the tape itself, and so a brief statement follows: Susan B. Lewis was born [in 1906], in the Swansboro district of Richmond, Virginia, and her current address is just across the street from where she was born. Her father was a waiter and her mother owned a grocery store. She had two brothers and one sister. She attended elementary school at Mrs. Armstead's Private School as well as at Dunbar Elementary School. She went to Armstrong High School, then to Virginia State University, and then Virginia Union University where she graduated with a B.A. She was a teacher for 40 years and retired in 1971. Mrs. Lewis occupies a position of great respect in the community, and among the many students she taught during her distinguished career is the Honorable Douglas Wilder, Governor of Virginia. Her husband owned and operated a barber shop and is also now retired. Mrs. Lewis was 86 years old at the time of the interview. Ed.]
Interviewer: Mrs. Lewis, tell me about your elementary school experiences when you were in the private school in the beginning. What was that like?
Lewis: My experience was very good. The teacher was very good, and she had all grades from 1 to 3. She paid particular attention to all of the students, and we really did enjoy that private school. I enjoyed it so much I did no want to go to public school.
Interviewer: What caused you to go to the public school?
Lewis: I went to the public school because Swansboro then was next to Manchester and to Richmond. We went to the public school which was at Dunbar.
Interviewer: Was Dunbar an all-black school?
Lewis: Yes, it was, and it was one that had one or two grades in one room and we really did enjoy it. At one time I had to go at 12 o'clock and stay until 4. We studied, and the teachers were very, very good, and I enjoyed them very much.
Interviewer: What was your favorite class?
Lewis: My favorite class? I had all of them. When I went to the 5th and 6th grades, I enjoyed being with the teacher and all the students in the 5th and 6th grades very, very much.
Interviewer: What specific subject, like math, science or English, did you like the best? Did you like everything the same?
Lewis: Is this in high school or elementary?
Interviewer: Elementary.
Lewis: In elementary school you had ... all the subjects together; you didn't take one subject and then another. The teacher taught 15 or 20 minutes on one subject and another subject the next time, but I enjoyed all of them. interviewer: So then, these were all black children? When you were little did you see white children anywhere? Did you ever play with white children?
Lewis: Well, I was exposed very much to them because my mother kept a grocery store and we were living, at that time, -in a very mixed neighborhood. We played with both black and white students.
Interviewer: What was your relationship with them? Were they just the same as black children?
Lewis: To me they were. There wasn't any difference. I didn't see any difference in them, and we played together. They lived next to me and we played. They went to a different school and, therefore, we couldn't hang out with each other until after we came home from school.
Interviewer: What did you think about them going to a different school?
Lewis: I knew that the law was that they had to go to one school and we had to go to another. There wasn't anything else that we could do but just accept that and continue to go to school.
Interviewer: So you didn't have any bad feelings or anything, it was just the way it was? What about middle school? Actually, you didn't go to middle school, did you?
Lewis: There was no middle school then.
Interviewer: So you went directly to high school? What about high school?
Lewis: in high school, we had quite a bit of work to do. We went from class to class--science, math, English, Latin and whatever. You went to class for an hour and you changed from one class to another. We just had a good time.
Interviewer: Were there extra-curricular activities, outside activities like sports or things like that?
Lewis: Not while I was in school. They didn't have any sports then, but they had them later on.
Interviewer: What high school did you go to?
Lewis: I went to Armstrong High School and graduated in 1923. After I graduated from high school, we had what was known as a "normal school.11 I went to the normal school from 1923 to 1925 and graduated from there in 1925. After that I taught.
Interviewer: What was the name of the normal school?
Lewis: Armstrong Normal School.
Interviewer: After you went to Armstrong High School, you then went to Armstrong Normal School and then to college after that?
Lewis: No. I taught, because that's where we learned to teach. We learned teaching in the normal school, and I taught in the county for three years, and then decided I wanted to go to college. So I stopped teaching there and went to Virginia Union.
Interviewer: Mrs. Lewis, what county did you teach in after the normal school?
Lewis: I taught in Chesterfield County. When I first started teaching there, I taught all 7 Grades, and then in December they transferred me to Hickory Hill High School. There I began teaching high school--different subjects-- English and math.
Interviewer: That was in Chesterfield County. Back in high school when you went to Armstrong, was that in the City of Richmond?
Lewis: Yes.
Interviewer: What was your favorite subject when you were in high school?
Lewis: My favorite subject depended on the teacher. At one time it was English, at another it was math, and another time it was science. I enjoyed all of those very, very much.
Interviewer: When did you decide to become a teacher? What grade you decide that?
Lewis: Well, when the experience was opened to us upon graduation, that we could go to Armstrong Normal and become a teacher, that's what I wanted to do. So, therefore, I went right across the street from Armstrong High School to Armstrong Normal School where I went for two years and became a teacher.
Interviewer: When you went to Armstrong Normal School, did you have to decide what subject you wanted to teach, or was it a general or blanket endorsement? Did you decide, "I'm going to teach English," or "I'm going to teach Science?"
Lewis: No, they did not have that division at that time. You just had to teach, in elementary school, all grades. Someone at Armstrong Normal taught you how to teach all the subjects you would need, such as science, math, and English.
Interviewer: Mrs. Lewis, when you went to Armstrong High School, where was it located?
Lewis: Armstrong was located at First and Leigh Streets, and it had three stories. It was very nice going to that school, and then I went to the normal school which was on St. Peter and Leigh Streets. By the time I went to normal school, the new Armstrong High School had up opened across the street. We could go over there to the cafeteria to eat, but everything else was for the students at Armstrong.
Interviewer: When you started teaching, what were your experiences like your first year?
Lewis: When I first began teaching [in Richmond], I taught at Armstrong Normal School for two years. At the end of those two years, the City School Board closed Armstrong Normal and said that all students had to go to Virginia Union to learn how to be a teacher. Then I was transferred to Armstrong High School. So, I started teaching in Richmond at Armstrong Normal in 1931 for two years. When I taught at Armstrong High School, I taught English for a number of years. I also taught history there. After a while, they decided to build a new Armstrong over on Church Hill. I taught there for 20 years, after which I retired. I taught quite a bit of extra-curricula activities in both of the schools. We did drama; we worked with the seniors to help them get themselves together as seniors; we assisted the seniors with their yearbooks; we started a student council and helped them work on it; we worked with the Athletic Association and helped to buy uniforms for the young men while they played. When I moved over to [the new Armstrong High School at] Church Hill, I became Head of the Student Council. We had various types of programs for the students: there was an election for the presidency and officers for the student council; and we sold all kinds of materials to raise money to help the students. Everything went beautifully while I was working there.
Interviewer: You talked about raising money for the students at the school, did the school not provide any money for the extra-curricula activities? That was the reason why you all had to raise it yourself?
Lewis: No, we just had other things we wanted to do that the School Board didn't give us. We put on concerts; bought the decorations for the stage; and provided costumes for the children. Also, when we needed new books to be added to what we had, the School Board gave that to us, but if we wanted magazines and the like, we would have to pay for them.
Interviewer: When you were a teacher all those years [you were a teacher for 40 years], did you have contact with your peers or colleagues in other schools, such as the white schools? Did you have contact with them and know what they were afforded? What books they had and what they did in their schools?
Lewis: No, no contact whatsoever. We worked all together to ourselves and they worked to themselves. No, we had no contact.
Interviewer: Did you ever question that? Did you wonder why or did you even want
Lewis: No, I didn't wonder why because that was how I was reared up all through my life, that we worked to ourselves and they, to themselves. So, it didn't bother me. It bothered me more when we integrated than it did before that.
Interviewer: Really? What kinds of feelings did you have about that?
Lewis: I taught one year when the schools integrated and was glad when I retired.
Interviewer: That's too bad; they lost a good teacher. What were your experiences in that one year? Why was it so bad to make you retire?
Lewis: I retired because I was 65 [Laughter]. I did not want to teach after I became 65, and I had already taught 40 years.
Interviewer: I don't blame you. What were some of your experiences that one year? Do you remember any experiences that one year?
Lewis: Well, it was a little harder to discipline the mixed classes. I was involved in the student council and I worked with them and they worked with me as well as the children who had been there all the time.
Interviewer: I understand that Armstrong High School was academically oriented: therefore, you were probably pushing that for the students you taught, which was great. Well, when they integrated that one year, did you see that decline or was it as strong ... ?
Lewis: No. It was just as strong as it was before then, that one year that I taught. No, I didn't see any difference at all.
Interviewer: Why didn't you like the integration? Why did you think that was a bad idea?
Lewis: I didn't think it was a bad idea. I thought it was a good idea, but I just enjoyed our children. That's all. I had been used to them, but I didn't think it was wrong. I thought it was right and very much so when they selected the schools that they wanted to go to and learned what they wanted, I thought it was very good.
Interviewer: The last year that you taught, you said that they integrated the children. Did they integrate the faculty as well?
Lewis: Yes, they did, and we worked together quite well. I was the Head of the Student Council and I had several of them who were interested in the work of the Student Council. We did quite a bit of work for the students. We taught them how to go to polls and vote, and how to set up precincts in the school on voting day. We had the children interested in voting for those who were running for the city, as well as those running for the presidency, vice-presidency, and the officers of the Student Council. We worked together very well, both whites and blacks.
Interviewer: Back when you were teaching, I guess maybe the first 20 years when you were in the old Armstrong, did the parents help or hinder in your educating of the children?
Lewis: No, indeed. We had good PTA'S. They would come and we would really have good meetings and offer help and do whatever they could. We didn't have any trouble with the children at that time. The parents were working very well with the teachers and with the principal at that time. During part of my teaching experience, we had a white principal. when he retired a black principal came on board. We worked together beautifully, all of us, both the white and black principals.
Interviewer: Could you tell a difference between the two?
Lewis: No. They worked together the same way. You couldn't tell the difference.
Interviewer: The second half of your 40 years of teaching experience, could you tell a difference in the children? Did you ever see a difference in the children, such as if they got less disciplined?
Lewis: You didn't see too much difference. The only thing was that at one time, we had a semester where the students changed in January. The teachers taught September to January, and from January to June. However, as the years went by, we did not do that. We had the children for the entire year. We did not have a first and second semester; therefore, you had to work more with the children then you did when there was a first and second semester. You had to work with them and then change and work with another group. There were twice as many children at one time than you had toward the latter part of the year.
Interviewer: When you were a teaching, did they have specific ability grouping for the children, like the children who aren't quite so smart, then the children who are average, and then the children who were above average
Lewis: No, all of them were in the same class and you had to teach all of them. However, you paid attention to those above average and you helped the others, too. I would seat the children who were somewhat slow up in the front of the classroom so I could look after them. The others would sit toward the back and were called upon to explain to the ones who were a little bit slow.
Interviewer: What do you think that did to them? Did they mind that they were being pointed out and set aside or no?
Lewis: They didn't know that they were being set aside. I would just say, you're going to sit near the front with me. The others would sit somewhere else. So, they didn't know that they were being placed according to their abilities. Then, as they would get along better, we would change the seats. They didn't remain in those seats all of the time. They enjoyed changing seats.
Interviewer: So your goal was really to make these children who were even slower to get up to the normal level?
Lewis: I tried very hard. I worked with all of my children very hard to try to get them to do what I wanted them to do and to learn.
Interviewer: That's good. When you were teaching what were your specific expectations of your children?
Lewis: I expected my children to study and to do the very best that they could. Not only did I expect them to study, but I expected them to behave themselves. The two rules that I had in my classroom were first, get your lesson, and second, behave yourself. If they did those two things, they were alright in my classroom [laughs].
Interviewer: Can you compare the children of today--what you know of students today and things you hear--with the students that you had 20 years ago?
Lewis: No, I cannot. I'm not involved with children now. I am too old to be bothered with children now. So, I cannot compare my students with the children today. I'm too old, I'm 86, and don't need to be bothered with them. [Laughter].
Interviewer: When you were a teacher, you said that the parents helped out a lot with the PTA and things like that. Did you have like room mothers, or mothers that would come in and help in the schools a lot?
Lewis: No, we didn't have that. We had only PTA parents who would come to the PTA meetings, but we didn't have room mothers. No, we didn't have any of them to come. You see, that was for elementary schools anyway, and I only taught high school. We didn't need mothers in high school like they did in the elementary schools.
Interviewer: Did you have any upper level classes like honors classes that you taught?
Lewis: We didn't have honor classes; we had honor students who were honored when they got their report cards. The Student Council would have an assembly and honor the students. When the year ended, the Student Council would give the honor students gifts because they made so much. They were all honored.
Interviewer: They were honored due to their grades and things like that?
Lewis: Yes.
Interviewer: Did their extra-curricula activities also factor in?
Lewis: They only had athletics that was extra-curricula. That was left up to the Athletic Department to do whatever they wanted to do in their department. We did what we wanted to do in our department.
Interviewer: Do you think that with the materials that you had in school to teach with and the school conditions and the room conditions, were they adequate?
Lewis: Yes, they were adequate for what I taught, such as government, and I had adequate material for that. I would also get other information other than what I would receive from school. It was adequate.
Interviewer: So you feel that the students that you taught did receive a very good education?
Lewis: I do. I really feel so, and not only do I feel so, I have met so many of my students that I have taught, and they all said that they really did enjoy being with me. Even though I was a strict teacher, they enjoyed losing in my class [laughs].
Interviewer: How many of your students have you kept up with, and how many later went on to college and graduated?
Lewis: Oh, many of them. They are ministers, dentists, doctors, nurses. Many of them went to nursing school at MCV. Oh, so many of them went to graduate school and became teachers, also.
Interviewer: You said that when you were little, you played with white children, and then you went to a school that was all black. After college, did you again have contact with white children?
Lewis: No, I didn't. I went to Virginia Union, Virginia State, and they had all the same color.
Interviewer: As an adult, what was your first experience that you can remember with a white person?
Lewis: I've had experience with white people all my life because my mother had a grocery store. They would come in there, and it wasn't anything unusual for me. I don't have to point out something to say that I had an experience with him or her. I had been with them all my life.
Interviewer: So that was no, new thing at all? You weren't totally secluded?
Lewis: No, I think they worked with me because if I wasn't working with the Student Council, I was working with the Athletic Department, helping to get the athletes altogether. So I worked with something extra all of the time.
Interviewer: How were the institutions in the specific neighborhoods, such as the church or other institutions like that, important to you as a teacher as well as when you were a student?
Lewis: I worked very much with my church. I taught Sunday school and had plays for my children. We worked very well together. So, the church and the school and I, all three of us worked together very well.
Interviewer: Was there one specific church that every one went to or were there a lot of churches around?
Lewis: Oh, I had high school students who went to all different churches. I'm talking about the church that I belonged to. Every now and then I had a student there who would come, but I also taught children at sunday school, quite a few of whom went to Armstrong, and some to Maggie Walker. So, we were exposed at both our church and sunday school.
Interviewer: How would you compare the education that you received, such as up to high school, with the education that your students got? Would that compare? Would it be the same, or can you think of any differences?
Lewis: The teachers who taught me stressed various things just as well as I stressed various things. That's the reason why I felt positive and wanted my children to feel the same. The teachers worked with me and tried to see that all the students, not just me, studied their lessons and tried to make A's and B's all along the way.
Interviewer: And you did that as well?
Lewis: Yes.
Interviewer: Mrs. Lewis, when did you decide on teaching as a career?
Lewis: After I graduated from Armstrong High School and went to normal school, I found out that it was very interesting to teach children. I decided then that I wanted to continue and graduate from normal school and become a teacher. During that time, there weren't many other opportunities for young women but teaching. Therefore, I went to normal school, both because I wanted to, and because I felt that I had to.
Interviewer: Can you tell me one of the funniest things that happened to one of your students or just a story about one of your students? Can you think of one?
Lewis: No, I can't think of any stories about my students [laughs].
Interviewer: What was your favorite subject to teach? You taught a lot of subjects, what was your favorite?
Lewis: Well, I taught English, history, and United States government the entire time. My favorite subject was United States government because I could find a lot of materials necessary to teach it in the papers, magazines and everything that we could find, from the federal government down to the city government. We were always following some area, the federal, the state, or city government. We would it enjoy it very, very much.
Interviewer: Did you ever teach any black history?
Lewis: No, I did not because we had a black history teacher whose room was right next to mine. We would find out what was going on over there and he found out what was going on in my room. We got along. He taught black history; therefore, it wasn't necessary for me to teach that unless some of the people who were connected with the United States government were brought in.
Interviewer: So then the students were taught black history. When you were in school, were you taught black history?
Lewis: No.
Interviewer: Why not?
Lewis: No, I was not taught it. They were not teaching it then. The School Board only brought it in a long time after I graduated.
Interviewer: Do you remember the year?
Lewis: No.
Interviewer: When the School Board brought it in the school, did you know any of that black history?
Lewis: I went to Hampton for a summer session to take black history, and I learned quite a bit then.
Interviewer: When you taught on the United States government, did you speak of the Civil War?
Lewis: Yes, we had to talk about that. If it was part of the government, so we had to talk about it. That was brought in as well as other subjects related to government were.
Interviewer: How did you teach your English? Did you have a favorite way to do that? Did you read stories, or literature, or grammar, or did you incorporate both?
Lewis: When I taught English, I incorporated both. We had Shakespeare's stories, we taught verbs, nouns, adjectives and the like, and how they were used. We read and did everything there.
Interviewer: So you taught government, history, as well as English? Did you teach any other thing besides that?
Lewis: No.
Interviewer: Did you work with the yearbook? Didn't you say something about that?
Lewis: Well, I worked with the senior high school. See, I taught government, and that was a senior subject; therefore, I worked with the seniors. We worked with the year book, and got that together, the pictures and everything, the history of the school, and everything that would go in the year book. We worked together and helped them. if I was not definitely related with the year book people, I worked with them and I helped them.
Interviewer: What did they have? Did they have specific stories in the year book and things like that or just pictures?
Lewis: No, they had the history of the school, the history of their class, talked about who was popular, who was not, the athletics, pictures of the athletes and how they had worked together. They just had quite a number of statements in the year book.
Interviewer: What made you, want to go. to college after your initial three years of teaching?
Lewis: Well, I wanted to go to college because I was young, and my brother and my sister had gone to college. My brother was finishing dentistry and my sister was in college. So, I didn't want to be left behind. I wanted to go, too. When I went, I enjoyed it very much and I was glad that I stopped teaching to go ...
[End of Transcript.]
Questions
Index of Oral History Transcripts - African-American Richmond:
Educational Segregation and Desegregation.
http://www.library.vcu.edu/jbc/speccoll/vbha/
school/lewis.html
Last update 2/97 (rb)