[This interview was not one originally scheduled, but was arranged by the interviewees by personal contact. Helene Lovell's experiences add still another useful dimension to the project - Ed.]
Interviewer: Would you please state your name for the record?
Lovell: My name is Helene Ruby Hinton Lovell.
Interviewer: And where were you born, Ms. Lovell?
Lovell: I was born in Baltimore, Maryland, in 1942.
Interviewer: And when did you come to Richmond?
Lovell: I was told that we came to Richmond when I was at the age of about three.
Interviewer: So it was pretty early on.
Lovell: Yes.
Interviewer: Would you like to tell us about your family? What your mother and father did?
Lovell: My father is a railroad man. He was born in Raleigh, North Carolina. My mother is from Richmond, and she was born in Short Pump. The first place that I can recall that we lived was in the [near] West End, on Beech Street.
Interviewer: Is your house still there?
Lovell: No, VCU has bought that property and torn all that down and built Oliver Hall on top of where I used to livd.
Interviewer: When did they do that ?
Lovell: I don't remember, I don't recall the year when that took place. Whenever the school expanded and built new buildings, added on new buildings to the campus.
Interviewer: So you were living on Beech St. most of your childhood here in Richmond?
Lovell: No, we [also] lived on 25th St. in Church Hill, and then from there we moved to North Side on North Ave., where my family still lives to this day.
Interviewer: How long were you in Church Hill, and what ages were you?
Lovell: I do remember going to school because I went to George Mason Elementary School, so I can remember going to school there and I can also recall going to school in the West End as well, when we were living on Beech St. I think I was [in Church Hill] until I was about seven and then we moved to North Side. I think I was about seven, I'd have to go back and calculate and check my sisters' ages.
Interviewer: So let's say it was early childhood.
Lovell: Early childhood, yes.
Interviewer: Did your mother work outside or inside the home?
Lovell: My mother did not work outside the home, although at one time she had been a beautician. I can remember being a small child and going to one of the beauty shops over on 2nd St., at 2nd and Broad Streets and she was working at one of those beauty shops as a beautician, and I can remember somd things that were going on around that time so I can remember she was doing that, and other than that, that's pretty much it. I don't think that she worked very long because after that I have two sisters [it's just the three of us] and my mother did not start to really have a job until after I graduated from high school.
Interviewer: So are you the oldest in the family?
Lovell: I'm the oldest of three girls.
Interviewer: So, did you think your family was comfortable when you were growing up? Do you remember any hardships or any high points?
Lovell: As a child I don't think you really think about or even relate to "hardships." You know, there's your mother and father and they take care of you and you have meals and clothing and that sort of thing. So I cannot remember experiencing any difficulties. Some of the pictures that I have seen of some of the places that we lived, by today's standards, were sort of run down housing that we lived in, but I also can remember having conversations with my parents since I've been an adult, and they said how very difficult it was to find decent housing when we were little. I do know that the house that we lived in on Beech St., there was a lady named Miss Betty who lived in the house with her daughter, and it may have been a house that we were sharing with other people. I can recall a staircase that you would go up, so I do know that there was another family that lived there. There was a family who lived next door whom we befriended who sort of adopted us as her nieces and we remained her adopted nieces until the day she died. So we kept in constant contact with her even after we moved away from Beech St. Both of them became a very significant part of our family. I do know that my mother said that in the house that we moved into on 25th St. which was a row house, there was no indoor toilet. I can remember taking a bath in a tin tub. She said the place was really run down and how they got there and painted and papered and made the place a decent place to live. And even there we befriended some more people that became significant parts of our lives. one lady used to take me to church with her every Sunday. We called her Miss Bessie [Dandridge], my mother stayed in touch with her.... I remember going to George Mason Elementary School, which is still there. We moved to North Avenue, and my family [still] lives [there] .... This was about 1947 ....
Interviewer: Was your church [First African Baptist] a strong part of the community and did people go there for other reasons than religious?
Lovell: During that time, yes. I can remember going there for teen activities and crafts, as well as spiritual kind of activities. A lot of things centered around the church, activities we participated in.... There was like a teen group I was a member of, as well as the choir, and Sunday school,, this sort of thing.
Interviewer: Do you think you spent more time there than you did at after school things and activities, or did the school offer sports or academic clubs?
Lovell: Are you talking as far as the elementary and middle school schools? I spent more time, I believe, in the church, than I did in after school activities. one of our schools that I went to didn't even have a cafeteria. George Mason didn't even have a cafeteria. I can remember when the teacher would take up money for those who wanted [something to eat]. They would bring in money for cookies and milk and the teacher would issue them out. We didn't even have a cafeteria back then.
Interviewer: Speaking of school experiences, how did you feel about your teachers overall; do you think they were supportive of you? Did you go to school with any white children?
Lovell: At the time that I was in school, it was totally segregated, but I can remember when they were having the court battles to desegregate the schools. There was no mixing.
Interviewer: What about the neighborhoods?
Lovell: Oh no. The neighborhoods were totally black and you lived in certain areas. You couldn't live anywhere that you wanted to live. There were designated areas. We were among some of the first families to move into the North Side area. My family, my aunt and uncle purchased a duplex. My mother and her sister [Martha Goodman], the two of them had been together once they had left Short Pump. They had always been together.... and still are today. When they moved in, a white family was still living upstairs; they had not moved yet.
Interviewer: Did that cause any problems?
Lovell: No. I think they were just waiting to move to wherever they were going to move to, into their new home or whatever. My uncle purchased it and let them stay until they found the place that they were going to move to was ready.
Interviewer: Did you see any gradual change in the neighborhood, in terms of racial composition; did you feel like it was mixed in the early stages before it became predominantly black, or did it stay mixed?
Lovell: No, it did not remain mixed. Everybody moved out. I mean all the white families moved out of the neighborhood and the black families moved in. A lot of the families are still there in those homes. But being a child then, I cannot recall any white children in the neighborhood. There may have been, but I cannot recall having seen them. And then, of course, you have situations where your parents have a tendency to keep you close to home and keep you in your yard; you did not go out of the yard. Especially with my mother, you did not go off the block. [Laughter]. If there was anything, I guess someone who was an adult could have more insight on that than I would as a child because we were kept close.
Interviewer: So when was the first time you had a personal encounter with a white person, whether in school or somewhere else?
Lovell: I don't know if I want to tell this or not. I think there are some things you may realize, but it's never brought out. You hear a lot of things and listen to a lot of things going on, but I was on North Avenue, and Brookland Park Boulevard was the "dividing line." I was maybe 12 or 13, because I was up on the Boulevard. I may have gone to the drug store. A bus passed, with some white kids on it. One of them yelled out the window and called me a "nigger." And, its like you know those things are said, but nobody had ever said it or used it towards me. You know, something kind of goes over you.
Interviewer: Did you talk to your parents about it? Did they explain or try to help you understand?
Lovell: No, I don't think so. I don't believe so.... Let me say this: as a child in our family, because you must remember my father was from North Carolina, my mother from here [Richmond], and there were certain limits that were put on them. In turn, when they are raising their children, they passed on these certain limits to you. So there were a lot of things that were "understood.11 When we got ready to go downtown, then it was Broad Street, that was downtown, you knew that you had to go to the bathroom and everything before you left home because you knew there was nowhere to go to the bathroom once you left. You didn't ask for anything to eat because you knew there was nowhere downtown for you to eat.
Interviewer: There weren't any black businesses downtown?
Lovell: There were some black businesses downtown, but like those places on 2nd Street, those were places my parents and I wouldn't frequent. And then, of course, in our training my mother was the kind of person who said, "You wait 'till you go home.to eat." We were a blue collar family, and my father was a railroad man, but he made good money, and he even shared with me that when they first built Gilpin Court, he had applied [because we were living on 25th Street and like I said it wasn't the best housing], but because he made too much money, we weren't eligible. His wife wasn't working and he had three children, hilt he made too much money to live there. I told him that I was grateful that we did make too much money, because of how it has changed, but at that time it was brand new.
Interviewer: Do you remember an age at which you started to question why you couldn't buy things in stores or go in certain neighborhoods? Did you question your parents or your peers?
Lovell: I don't think we questioned. When I think about my friends that I grew up with, I think we were so accepting of it because that's the way it was. You heard that things were different in New York, where things weren't quite that bad, but most of our traveling was going South where it was worse then here. I can remember, and this is really ironic, I'm getting a little off the track, but your talking about experiences of noting race difference: when I was about seventeen, I was baby sitting during the summer in Virginia Beach for a Jewish family who had three children. on this particular day it was raining, so they decided that all of us would go to movies. I didn't know any different, and I was standing in [the ticket] line with the children. You have to remember that in a sense I was coming from a sheltered family, too, and the lady in the ticket office told me, "You're not coming in here; you can't buy a ticket here." The children went into the downstairs section and she told me that I had to go upstairs and get a ticket and sit up there. The theater was segregated. The few times I had been to the movies, I had been over to the black theater. I don't think the family I was working for even thought we'd be separated. I didn't even realize that we would be separated, all sitting in the same movie. I wasn't too sophisticated at that time. So I was worried to death about those children and I came out of the theater to wait for them. When their father picked us up, the children told what had happened, and their father was mad. It was topic of discussion when we got back to the house. I stayed with them for a whole month. That one month let me know that I did not need to work as a domestic anywhere. They were fine.... [but] I couldn't go on the beach unless I was with them, and then if I did go on the beach it was at night or else I could take a bus to the black beach on my day off....
Interviewer: I want to ask you a question about your awareness of black history and whether or not they ever taught you about prominent black figures? When you went back to high school after one of those experiences, did it change your outlook as far as what was being taught to you?
Lovell: Black historx at that time was one week. They've expanded it since then. You have to remember that even though it was an all-black school, the people who were running the system were white and they dictated what could be taught. All my teachers were black until I attended VCU. My world was totally black, and I don't remember questioning things. I may have talked about it, but I still didn't challenge it. During black history study, many of the same names were repeated year after year. Not until I was an adult did I learn that there were a lot of others. They [Ralph Bunche, Sojourner Truth, etc. ] were held up as role models, but I could probably tell you more about Columbus and people like that because that's the kind of history we were taught.... I'm sure the teachers had some kind of guide about what they were allowed to teach....
Interviewer: Were your teachers leaders in your community?
Lovell: We weren't involved in politics at that time, [and] the government was all white. They [the teachers] were role models and you had to respect them....
Interviewer: Did a lot of people in your class aspire to becoming teachers? What were some of the goals?
Lovell: Some did become teachers, yes. We didn't talk much about personal goals or problems in those days, except to your closest friends. If your friends had problems at home, they didn't share it.
Interviewer: Let's talk about your high school experience. That wotld be after the Brown v. Board of Education decision [in 1954]. Did you know anyone who went to a desegregated school?
Lovell: I graduated from high school in 1961, and my school was still segregated. I knew one girl named Lorraine Person; she was one of the first to go to a white school, and she went to Chandler High School. I don't know if she was bused or not. She's about six years younger than I am, but I know her because she was my sister's friend and in her class. My sister was selected to go, but my parents decided not to let her participate. The decision was made by my parents and we didn't discuss it.
Interviewer: Do you think your sister wanted to go to the white school?
Lovell: I don't know if she wanted to go or not. She was a lot younger than me, and she may have shared that with one of my younger sisters, but not me.
Interviewer: So in your high school class there was no question about whether or not you would go to a desegregated school?
Lovell: No, the only choice was between the two black high schools--Walker and Armstrong. They were rival schools. When we were at Benjamin Graves Junior High School, that was where the split would take place, and you would have to decide. I had a lot of friends at Graves who went to Armstrong and a whole group of us went to Walker.
Interviewer: Was that decision based on convenience or were there other factors involved?
Lovell: Convenience and location was something to be considered because it was right in the area where I lived in North Side, but maybe I just liked the idea of being over there with the Mighty Green Dragons! [Laughter]. At that time it was something to be a part of that school family as opposed to being one of the Armstrong Wildcats. [Laughter].
Interviewer: Was graduating from high school very important to you?
Lovell: Yes, it was a must. - You went if you had to go to age 25! [Laughter]. Perhaps it's because my mother didn't finish school f or various reasons. She had to go to work. So, it was understood in my family that you would finish high school. At that time, you could get a good job with a high school diploma.
Interviewer: Did you work when you finished high school?
Lovell: I went to work because my parents did not have the money for me to go to further in school. I got a job over at Stuart Circle Hospital and I stayed there for a short while....
Interviewer: Was there ability grouping at your school?
Lovell: No. I can remember one girl who was "different," and I think she had some kind of learning disability. She was in some of my classes. She wasn't separated.... I can also remember Isaiah Jackson, who became a brilliant conductor here and in Europe. He was in school with me, and he was a genius as far as I am concerned. He carried two brief cases and a violin [laughter], but he was in school with us. Arthur Ashe was in my class, and he was to graduate with my class, but he went to California to further his tennis career. He was there [at Walker], and he was in my class. We had quite a few bright students.
Interviewer: Was there any talk of college?
Lovell: Not much. You knew you were going to Virginia State or Virginia Union, Norfolk State, Johnson C. Smith, Tuskegee--the black colleges, and maybe some of the business schools like in Washington, D.C.
Interviewer: You were telling us about your work experience when you got out of high school ....
Lovell: I worked at Stuart Circle Hospital for a short time and then I got a job at DuPont. I took the test and passed it but I almost did not get that job because in my trying to the plant itself--'cause I had never been there before--I went downhill through the trees and the wind messed up my hair. I tried to fix it the best I could with my hands, but it was. still messy. They asked me why I didn't go in the bathroom and comb it, and I said I didn't know I could use that bathroom. He told me that I could. I got the job there. I passed the test and another black woman passed the test, also. And they said to me, "Well, don't tell her when you're going to start," because I went to a local school and they could check my references more quickly than her's. Therefore, I started two weeks before she did. And I mean they really did check my references. Those people I put down had to write letters back to DuPont.
Interviewer: What kind of job was it that you applied for?
Lovell: I was hired to work in "nylon beaming." I was one of the first blacks to work inside the plant. They did not have any black people on the inside yet, so in a sense that was my first experience working with other races, with the white race.
Interviewer: Was it tough, at work and socially?
Lovell: Oh, that was especially tough. It was especially tough for me, because I was the only black person, and I was a black female. At that time they didn't even use the term "black" it was "colored". I'm not a real light person, but I'm not real dark. I blended hn; I didn't stand out like "oh, there's a colored person there." So it wasn't until you got close up on me that you saw "oh, she's not white." I had the experience of other women talking to me when I vas in the working area, but when we were outside the working area they shunned me. They acted like they didn't know me. Two people worked on a crew, and a girl, Marianne, that was my working partner, she was from somewhere in North Carolina; Se was really nice to me. We' go to lunch together and all. She was a flirt, and when guys would offer her a cut in line, she would make them give me one, too, since we were together. They'd let me, but you saw that look in their faces. Some of the other white girls--even though I worked there you could tell they were uncomfortable. But I'd also have this churning in ... because there were also other blacks working there, and I would feel like I was betraying them, that I should be eating with them at lunch. Like I'm over there trying to be white, trying to be something I'm not. But I was just being with the girl I worked with. Then one day, this southern girl, Pat, Marianne's best friend, was driving up the hill that I was walking up. She stopped, and she said to me "Helene, I would give you a ride, but you know, I have to work with these people." And I have never forgotten that. I told her that it was o.k., that I understood, you know, and I did understand that she didn't want to be seen as a person who was in love with folks of color.
Interviewer: Were there a lot f men there?
Lovell: Yes. There were men working on the side I was and some of them would speak to me and some wouldn't. There was one girl named Edna who was white, but tanner than me. She said to me one time when we were working together that one of the men had asked if she were colored, too. We died laughing. [Laughter].
Interviewer: How long did you stay at DuPont?
Lovell: I was at DuPont for about a year. Then I left and got married. I was about 19 or 20. That was the first time I had really worked with whites. I didn't have any problems or run into any confrontations. Wmen have a tendency to treat other women o.k. You run into a few diehards, but basically you find other women are the same. Later on, I worked at a bag company and there were a lot of white women there who would share a lot of things with me. And so, I had a few friends there. That's when I think I really started to experience the racial things.
Interviewer: When did you have your first child?
Lovell: When I was 20. William Melvin Coles. Jr. I never lived anywhere except in Richmond. Everything that was significant to me then is gone now.... You would dress up to go downtown, but people dress very casual now.... White salespeople wouldn't wait on us 'cause we didn't look like we had any money. This was reality. Sometimes even now, when you come across the ones from an older generation--and some not so old--Istill have to speak up and say I'm next.
Interviewer: So you feel now sometimes that even though the laws have changed that it isn't a desegregated society?
Lovell: I think there's still a lot of home training still going on. I think there are families that still train children that there are some things you should and shouldn't do, and ones that say "they're no good; you can't trust them." Even today, when I was a few minutes late [to this interview], I thought you two would just think "oh, typical." For me, black folks are always late.
Interviewer: Do you think that's leftover in you, that you'll pass that onto your kids, that because you're of a certain race that you have to do things better to overcome a stereotype?
Lovell: When you were talking about images--because I have sons, and it's important what image you present--because in this country, it's still white America. When you go for a job for instance, 99% of the jobs you go to there's someone there of the white race who'll interview you. My oldest son was dying for a gold tooth [this was way back, he's 29 now]. And I said "Absolutely not!" I tried to get him to understand that people have certain perceptions of you: your hair, whatever. When he left home, he finally found a dentist who would give him that gold crown he wanted. He now says to me, "I now understand what you meant." I begged him, pleaded with him, not to do it.... He finished Norfolk State in public administration, and he went to California and finished another course in marketing. When you're a black male, how you appear can affect you in business.... In my mind, people associate that [gold crowns] with hoodlums and drug gangs and those kind of things. And that's nowhere near the kind of background he comes from.... My two sons march to a different drummer....
Interviewer: What was your other son's name?
Lovell: Kirkland Tee Coles.
Interviewer: Did they both go to the same high school?
Lovell: No. William went to the "Huquenot-Jefferson-Wythe Complex" .... He went to school when they merged those schools together.... He was in that era. Kirk went to John Marshall High School. They're nine years apart. William was in school with white students, but Kirk's school was predominantly black. I know of one white student, and he played football with Kirk.
Interviewer: Do you think that affected their education?
Lovell: I don't know; I can't really say whether that affected their education or not.
Interviewer: What about classes available, social life, things like that?
Lovell: The only thing that concerned me was with Kirk, the youngest, that he was in [an] all black [school], and the world is not like that any longer. In other words, I mean that in most schools you find a mixture, and when you go to work you find a mixture; whereas in elementary school and middle school, you did not have a mixture. NOW, he [Kirk] did have a white teacher and he got along fine, no problems, but I was concerned how he would interact once he was out in the real world.
Interviewer: What about Norfolk State, isn't that a predominantly black university? Do you think that was an easy transition for William?
Lovell: Not for him, because he was a loner anyway. The toughest thing for him was the dorm....
Interviewer: Let's talk about Richmond a little more; you mentioned how things have changed in the neighborhoods, the deterioration of Broad St. Are you familiar with the term "white flight?"
Lovell: Oh yes.
Interviewer: Do you think there had been almost a 're- segregation' by the time your younger son was in school, that Richmond had it's predominantly black schools regardless of desegregation.
Lovell: I feel that white flight definitely affected the school system, because not only did they [whites] do that, but they started creating their own academies for their kids to attend; therefore, they did not have to go to school in the city, even though they lived in the city. They put them [their children] in private schools somewhere, and that did affect the overall makeup of the schools....
Interviewer: Is this what you meant by your statement that "the world isn't like that anymore?"
Lovell: Just that I wanted him [Kirk] to be comfortable and be able to interact with others. And I'm not saying he isn't comfortable. I really don't know, because he doesn't have any white friends.... but he doesn't nor has he ever socialized with anyone of another race.
Interviewer: How would you compare your experience of going to school at that time of a segregated system with the supposedly non-segregated system of today, in view of Kirk's experience? Could you make comparisons with your children?
Lovell: I could only elaborate on my experiences as far as what school was like for me. I couldn't really say for them. I can recall my son having a problem with one of the white instructors in high school. But then again, this particular child [William] marched to the beat of a different drummer, and some of them did not understand him, or were not comfortable with his challenging them, because he had three white male teachers he had a problems with. one teacher said to me that whatever he presented to the class, William would challenge it. And he did admit to me that on some occasions he did have darn good arguments. So you might say his experiences were not that great. For me, it [school] was great, because I didn't know anything else; I didn't have anything else to compare it to. The teachers were o.k.-- you have good and bad teachers, I don't care where you are. We were a family; the teachers cared about you. I know I played hookey once, I don't know why, and the high school counselor lived near us and her daughter was in my class. I played hookey and she called my mother and said, "Helene wasn't in school today." Even one of elementary school teachers lived on the same block as my family. Another teacher lived the next street away. So the whole community, the principals and teachers and everybody lived right in the same community. Sometimes I think that some problems that we are having today come from our children's role models not living in the community. They live elsewhere. Once integration did come about, as far as schools and where you live and so on, those who were able to upgrade and live petter moved way out. Well, that left those folks who weren't able to do, that left them in that community and the same school while they [those who moved out] just drop into town, taught, and drove home again. Sometimes I wonder, if anything, if integration hasn't been detrimental. Sometimes I wonder.
Interviewer: Your sons--do they have role models in or out of the community?
Lovell: We're involved in the church. My father, my family, their fathers and stepfathers, they were o.k. people. Maybe our marriages fell apart, but they were o.k. people. My father and my grandfather were role models for my children, as well as ministers and people in the community where my parents live, because I hd to work and they spent a lot of time with my parents.
Interviewer: Did your children have any reaction to any of the more famous, media-oriented black leaders?
Lovell: Martin Luther King. He had an effect on both of them. William was growing up when the marches were going on and they were trying to bring about change. He [William] couldn't believe that those things were going on. Some of the experiences I had shared with him were hard for hem to believe that somebody could do those things, everything that had gone on in the past. It was hard for them [William and Kirk] to believe and relate to.
Interviewer: So you think he was aware of the changes when he was young?
Lovell: William was born in 1962, and saw things on t.v. like riots in D.C. Kirk has been told about it, but William saw it on t.v. There was some window breaking here, but not like what you saw up in Washington when people went sort of crazy.... When Martin Luther King was assassinated, there was some breaking of glass in downtown Richmond. A guy I knew was charged with participating in that. He wound up getting some time, but his case got some attention in a famous decision.
Interviewer: Do you remember his name?
Lovell: I believe it was Leon Harris.... He was appealing the sentence, and was released [by the decision] because he should not have been incarcerated while appealing the case.
Interviewer: So what's your overall feeling on the difference between segregation and desegregation, between you and your sons?
Lovell: I don't know if I want this to go down on record or not, [but] I sometimes wonder whether integration was good for us or not. I wonder if it had been separate but really equal.... AS time goes on, I really don't think we were even being taught the same things in school. I really don't think so. We were getting second hand textbooks, second hand furniture, the stuff that was being discarded was sent to the black schools. It makes you wonder.
Interviewer: So you're saying if there had been a way to make sure you were getting the same quality education as the white students and keeping that strong sense of community and role models, that going to an all black school wasn't something you'd want to forfeit?
Lovell: Not when I look at what's happening today. Better deal?
Lovell: No, and with my being limited, I did not encourage that or pass that on to my sons. I shared my experiences here as far as segregation was concerned, [such as] riding the back of the bus, seeing a dog ride a seat on the bus right here in Richmond that I couldn't sit in.... I can remember the first experience when I could ride a bus and sit anywhere I wanted. It just made you f eel good because you could sit in the front and you knew they didn't want you to.... when you would sit down they would get up and move. Of course, eventually the buses got all black.... I used to ride the city bus to school. We got a book of ten tickets half price cause we were in school .... That reminds me of something: the Tyler family that lived around the corner from where I lived was a mulatto family. They rode on the front of the bus because they looked white.
Interviewer: Did "affirmative action" have an impact on your jobs?
Lovell: I know the job at DuPont was like that. The Virginia Employment Commission had sent me out there. You had to pass a lot of tests to get those jobs and I don't know if that was in place before I went out there. Of course, you had to pass tests to get a job.... I'm sure affirmative action did play a part in my jobs. I got a job as a machine operator in a bag factory. I was the first female and first black to do it, and I caught hell... [being harassed by the males on the job]. This took place in the 1960's .... I was doing a man's job and the other workers were men ....
Interviewer: Were there any consequences?
Lovell: Some of the male operators didn't want to deal with this, but they eventually got used to it. This was in the 1960s. So you know they weren't supposed to deny you a job, but there was still this prejudice. Not only was I a black, but a woman as well. It was a double whammy. I eventually took a lesser-paying job. You get to the point where you get your fill, but another black female got my job.
Interviewer: What was your next job?
Lovell: Well, I had Kirk, and I also worked at an optical company.... There were only white males there, but they didn't say anything to you. I did hear someone use the word "jigaboo" in the lab one day, and I asked a white co-worker what it meant. When he told me, I said "Oh my God." It was the first time I had heard it. Then I got pregnant with Kirk and decided to stay home.... Then my doctor recommended this job at V.C.U.... and I got it. I was about 31.... and at an all-white university.... That summer was something.... I wasn't married, I was divorced.... I took some courses.... and I had to pull up some of those old skills in history and English.... I was in school for two years, but my children... [made it difficult], and with studying, it got to be too much. My job with the student tutorial office [took a lot of time] .... The office is now the "Office of Academic Support" and I'm one of the head secretaries.... Our office was one of the main places for black students to come for help.... This was about 1973. One of our main purposes was to bring in black students with academic potential .... [but] they had a little extra support [from us] with academic assistance.... I have been there for the last 18 years.
Interviewer: What changes have you seen at VCU? In particular what do you think about the new emphasis on Afro-American studies?
Lovell: Now the program mainly works with students with disabilities.... such as blind students.... They have added more classes [on black history], and I think they are offering [a greater variety] ....
Interviewer: Do you think these classes have had a positive impact on black youths?
Lovell: Only if they take the courses.... We all need to learn about other ethnic backgrounds and learn about one another.... and particularly since we have so many different ethnic groups here [at V.C.U.] .... We need to teach our children about this.... Universities need to put more emphasis on it.... The 'melting pot" now is larger....
Interviewer: Should each ethnic group have its own history taught, or should they all be taught together?
Lovell: That's deep [Laughter]. That's a heavy question.... Of course you've got to break it down and then blend it all together, because there may be some common things, some common ground. For example, they all have weddings, but each culture may do it differently. I was talking to an Iranian student just the other day, and I was so interested. I told him to bring some pictures because I would like to know how they do it. We need to appreciate one another and understand that we are really no different. You know, its like all black folks weren't born out in the bush. I need to know about this. I wish I had been given the opportunity to learn about the people in Africa, to empathize and sympathize.... I can't even relate to apartheid in South Africa today.... because it wasn't even that extreme for us during segregation.... we didn't have to go around with a pass.... I can only imagine what it must be like .... If we knew more about each other, maybe it would help ....
Interviewer: So you think the schools can help with that?
Lovell: I think that's definitely one of the places. Like I said before, you spend a lot of time in school .... You get a lot of your ideas in school .... [For instance]..., a lot of children never went anywhere until they went on class trips in school ....
Interviewer: I would like to know what you know about your ancestors?
Lovell: We haven't really traced our roots.... but recently I was reading an article about my great uncle who was 116 years old when he died, and he was talking about his pappy coming home from the Civil War.... He was my grandfather's brother.... He told a lot about Richmond in the old days.... He did a lot of farming. My mother was part American Indian on her mother's side. I don't really know a lot about that. That article said something about his [the great uncle's] parents [he was my mother's uncle] .... But we are all just beginning to touch base with each other. I just discovered a cousin right here at V.C.U. It's really weird....
Interviewer: [The question is not on the tape. Apparently it had to do with the interviewee's experience with desegregation and equality].
Lovell: When I think about what we wanted when we thought about being "equal," we just wanted to have the same opportunities as everybody else. If I wanted to go somewhere, I wanted to be able to do it, to go in a store and buy something. It was almost as if the laws permitted white people to deny you and you couldn't do anything about it. It feels good to know now that you do have some recourse.... You couldn't go into [clothing stores] and try on clothes. And I couldn't eat at the lunch counters.... This was in the 1950's. In [one store] there was a little lunch counter for us.... and [another] had one, also. Cone store] took out their...
[Transcript ends here.]
Questions
Index of Oral History Transcripts - African-American Richmond:
Educational Segregation and Desegregation.
http://www.library.vcu.edu/jbc/speccoll/vbha/
school/lovell.html
Last update 2/97 (rb)