[Sheri Taylor was the youngest person interviewed in the project. As such, she added still another important dimension to the interviews as the only interviewee who had not experienced the older forms of segregated education. Ed.]
Interviewer: Can you give us your name and when you were born?
Taylor: My name is Sheri Taylor. I was born in [1971].
Interviewer: Have you lived in Richmond all your life?
Taylor: Yes, basically. Moved from New York at about 6 months [of age]. So I've been here all my life.
Interviewer: Let's start off talking about your early childhood experiences. When you were a small child, before you went to school, where did you live in Richmond or elsewhere and what are some of your earliest memories about your childhood?
Taylor: We lived on the Northside on Jowin Lane, I remember that. I can remember it was a one-story house. I don't remember too much about that house. My earliest childhood memory is of being in the back yard over [at] a friend's house right next door to my house and she had a big walk-in doll house her grandparents had given her. It was a big walk-in doll house. That's my first memory of being in Richmond.
Interviewer: Can you think back on the things you did with your family, your parents or your brothers and sisters, such as trips or vacations and is there anything that stands out as particularly memorable.
Taylor: What do you mean, as I was young or growing up?
Interviewer: When you were young.
Taylor: We usually took trips to New York or we sometimes went to Atlantic City.
Interviewer: Is this to visit relatives?
Taylor: Sometimes, sometimes not. It depends. North Carolina, that was definitely to visit relatives. We went to the Bahamas. That's about it.
Interviewer: How important were your neighborhood institutions, such as church, when you were a child?
Taylor: Real important. We were always at church. My church is about 5 minutes away down the road. It's on Rte. 5, the main road I live off of.
Interviewer: So your parents got (?) that into your life very early and it's still with you today?
Taylor: Yes. Right.
Interviewer: Can you think back on your childhood playmates. Did you have playmates of another race or ethnic identity?
Taylor: Uh, huh. My next door neighbor, for the longest time, was Bryan Wilson. He was best friend for the longest time. We started in maybe 4th grade. He was a year behind me. My neighbors all around me were white for as long as I can remember until I was in, 'maybe, 8th or 9th grade. We were the only blacks on the block for the longest time.
Interviewer: So did black people move into the neighborhood?
Taylor: Eventually they did.
Interviewer: You didn't move then to a neighborhood that was more predominantly black?
Taylor: No.
Interviewer: Going on the elementary school, go back in your memory to the first day of school. What year was that and what school?
Taylor: Elementary school? Gosh, I don't remember what year it was.
Interviewer: Well, we can figure that out later.
Taylor: Varina Elementary. My first day at school at Varina Elementary I can barely remember. oh, I can remember my teacher's name. Her name was Mrs. Crouch and I was in third grade. Her name was Mrs. Crouch and I can remember I used to love school. I just loved school. We changed classes, which I now think is weird, because why was I so young and changing classes? But we changed classes for reading and I had fun in school.
Interviewer: What influence did your family--your parents, brothers and sisters and other kin folk--have on your outlook about school?
Taylor: They always made me want to go to school. They always encouraged me to make good grades, because I remember in the third grade, I still have my report card, and I look back and I got a star for every time I got honor roll, and I had six stars because I made honor roll 6 six weeks in a row. They always made me feel proud about my grades.
Interviewer: Was this your parents?
Taylor: Yes.
Interviewer: How many brothers and sisters do you have?
Taylor: I have one brother who is younger.
Interviewer: Did you ever move during the year and have to change schools?
Taylor: No.
Interviewer: Can we talk about your classmates? How were they like you? How were they different?
Taylor: Basically, in Varina, everybody is pretty much the same as far as economic status. Everybody is basically on the same wavelength. The only main difference is some people are black and some people are white. That's about the biggest difference. Some people have a little more money, some people have a little less, but everybody is about the same.
Interviewer: Was it pretty much middle class?
Taylor: Yes, pretty much.
Interviewer: Regarding your teachers, how did you feel about them and what you received from them?
Taylor: Well, I loved all my teachers in elementary. But are you talking about high school now?
Interviewer: Just about elementary right now.
Taylor: Elementary? In elementary, I loved all my teachers.
Interviewer: That means high school changed? older, I think some of the Richmond City Schools may have gotten, not a bad education, but not as good as mine.
Interviewer: Okay, we can move on to junior high school. Which junior high school did you attend?
Taylor: John Rolfe Middle School.
Interviewer: John Rolfe Middle School. And how was this level of schooling different from elementary school?
Taylor: Well, number 1, we changed classes a lot more. it wasn't hard, to me. It just got a little more specific. They expected a little more of you. It wasn't a lot though. I didn't feel pressured.
Interviewer: How was it a big change socially?
Taylor: Yes, socially, because I was a cheerleader, but the school wasn't hard. It didn't seem hard, harder than elementary.
Interviewer: Where did you go to high school?
Taylor: Varina High School.
Interviewer: And what is the most important memory you have about high school?
Taylor: Hmm, my most important memory in high school? It would have to be being on the Homecoming Court [laughs]. That was my most memorable moment.
Interviewer: Can you tell us about it?
Taylor: Well, you know, that's a big deal at Varina [laughs]. I was a cheerleader also, so me and my best friend were cheerleaders. We were, like, "Well, what if we don't get picked?" And I was, like, "We probably won't get picked," but in the back of our minds we still wanted to get picked. So, I was looking really bad one day at school. I had on a cheering uniform. I always hated to wear my cheering uniform. ... I didn't think I looked that great in it. We had senior convocation, or something like that. It was for the seniors and I [was a] senior. They were calling out all the names, and I go chosen. I was really surprised and really happy [laughs].
Interviewer: Can you think about your high school classmates again? What was the racial composition of the student body?
Taylor: Racial composition? What do you mean?
Interviewer: Well, black to white. Was it equal? Were there a lot more whites?
Taylor: Oh, gosh. It wasn't equal, but I never felt uncomfortable. Sometimes you may feel uncomfortable when it's so many more white students than it is black. But I never....
Interviewer: So there were a lot more white students?
Taylor: Yes, it was more white students but I never felt uncomfortable.
Interviewer: So it didn't influence you at all?
Taylor: No.
Interviewer: Can you tell us what you most liked about going to high school?
Taylor: What I liked most about going to high school? My friends. That's the most I liked about it. That's about it.
Interviewer: So it was like a social situation where you got see your friends?
Taylor: Yes, right.
Interviewer: And what did you most dislike about high school, if you can remember?
Taylor: I think I most disliked about high school was studying. I liked to make good grades, but I hate to study. Sometimes, that conflicts.
Interviewer: Were you bused to school?
Taylor: Bused? No.
Interviewer: How did you get to school?
Taylor: I drove.
Interviewer: How far did you have to drive?
Taylor: About 5 minutes.
Interviewer: So, before you could drive how did you get to school?
Taylor: Oh, bus.
Interviewer: You took a bus?
Taylor: Yes.
Interviewer: It was only 5 minutes away, so was that the closest according to the [inaudible]?
Taylor: Yes.
Interviewer: What kind of encouragement and support did you get to attend school from your parents and family? This is in high school, now.
Taylor: I really didn't have to get encouraged to go to school because I always wanted to go to school.
Interviewer: How about from your friends, your peer group?
Taylor: Yes, the kids I hung around, we all liked to go to school. I mean, even though we hated to study or hated to do homework, we all liked school.
Interviewer: How did your teachers treat you?
Taylor: My teachers liked me.
Interviewer: Okay, how did you feel about them?
Taylor: I liked most of my teachers. There were some that I didn't like and some that I liked a lot, but....
Interviewer: You had both black and white teachers in high school?
Taylor: Yes, but it was much more white teachers than black.
Interviewer: Did the race of the teacher make any difference to you at all?
Taylor: No.
Interviewer: When you were in high school, were you aware of ability grouping or tracking of students into different curricula, such as vocational or academic or college preparatory?
Taylor: Yes, I noticed that a lot, because it seems like in Henrico County high schools that they'll put you in a particular group. Like I was in "B" level, which is college preparatory. It's like when they put you in "B" level, you stay in "B" level. It's like no advancement, you're put into the Honors Program, it's like you stay in the Honors Program. Or I felt sorry for some kids who would be put in "C" level, which is not really vocational or anything like that, but it's just below "B" level, and you always are treated like a "C" level student.
Interviewer: So once you're tracked into "C" level, you're saying you can't really get out
Taylor: Yeah, it's really hard to get out. it's really hard to prove yourself that you can be in a "B" level class, because I am noticing now with my brother, his teachers are starting to put him "C" level and I'm telling my parents, "Don't let that happen to him because they will keep him in "C", level for all his high school years." You have to go and say "No, I don't want him to be in "C" level. I want him to be "B" level, college prep."
Interviewer: When was this testing done?
Taylor: Probably your eighth grade year, when you're about to go to high school.
Intervhewer: So you were tested in eighth grade and that basically affected the rest of your high school career?
Taylor: Exactly.
Interviewer: Whether you were going to go to college or not?
Taylor: Exactly, because I had lots of friends who were in ...., level and they were like, I'm not going to college. You know, lots of friends who are working at Sears or in the Army. They had no intentions of going to college. Whereas some of my friends who were in "C" level classes were like "I really want to go to college." And when a college looks at your transcripts, they see that you haven't taken some necessary,courses and they feel that you are not stable enough to go to college, when actually if you would have studied or if someone would have given you a chance to go to ... level you would have taken those courses.
Taylor: I think--this is really silly [laughs]--but the dress codes. I think that the students nowadays put too much emphasis on material things and I really would change the dress code. I think that public schools should have a dress code because they [students] put too much emphasis on the wrong things and they don't care. They really do not care about the teachers or the books. They don't care. They go to school for one thing and that's to see who has on what.
Interviewer: So you think a dress code would... ?
Taylor: I really do.
Interviewer: Do you think there is anything that the school system could do besides that might change their attitudes towards school?
Taylor: I'm not sure. I don't know. I'm not sure.
Interviewer: What do you think is the most important educational consideration to pass on to younger people that, if you have children, you would like to pass on to them?
Taylor: To read a lot because it helps your vocabulary, it helps you to understand things when people read something to you, it helps you to sort out what they want you to say. It's just important to read. And that's another thing: they don't ask you to read as much. The lower level you go, as far as the "A" "B" .. and "D" level at my high school, the less you have to read. I think it's important to read.
Interviewer: It should be the other way around?
Taylor: Right, exactly, because the people in the honors program, they read all the time. At "B" level, I read but I didn't read, you know like, 'good' things [laughs]. I mean it's just important to read.
Interviewer: Do you know if the materials for different levels were different? For example, maybe you were reading Romeo and Juliet and A "D" I level class was reading essays on the working place or....
Taylor: I don't think so.
Interviewer: Did they have the same type of materials as you did?
Taylor: Oh, I see what you mean. I'm not sure because I never took those classes, but as far as I can remember....
Interviewer: Just from what your brother brings home to read.
Taylor: I'm not even ever home, so I'm not even sure, but as far as I can remember, the "C" level classes were reading the same things as the "B" level classes. I remember when we were reading Beowulf the other classes were reading Beowulf. I can't remember. I don't think so.
Interviewer: What is the most significant change in the schools that you have noticed in your lifetime?
Taylor: I really don't know. Can we come back to that question?
Interviewer: If you think about it, just jump in. Maybe something that has changed in the last 10 years since... ?
Taylor: Ok.
Interviewer: Do you have any opinions about misconceptions about what schools are like? Maybe people who are way out of school in their 30's or so, what kind of misconceptions they might have about the schools today?
Taylor: I think they think the kids are just in school and just partying and having a good time, they don't really do anything. But that's not true because I just got out of school three years ago. When we went to school, we had a lot of fun in school, I mean we laughed and talked in the halls and all that. But we did get our work done. I mean we went to classes and stuff like that. And I know people that were in the lower level classes went to class, too.
Interviewer: And worked just as hard?
Taylor: Yes. Exactly.
Interviewer: I'm going to switch things for a little bit. Can you try to recall when you first became of aware of people's racial identity? When you first realized that there were black people and white people or any other race or ethnic minority?
Taylor: Probably about 6th grade.
Interviewer: Can you tell us about it?
Taylor: I'm trying to think. I never had any problems, any incidents that I went crying home to my mom or anything like that.
Interviewer: But even if you, say you were watching TV, and you suddenly realized that there were big differences?
Taylor: I cannot remember a time.
Interviewer: It doesn't have to be your first time, just if you can remember any time that you maybe noticed the difference?
Taylor: I'm sorry, I just can't.
Interviewer: How were you made aware of black history?
Taylor: My parents and my church.
Interviewer: Did they include the outstanding events and the leaders?
Taylor: Yes. I can remember my dad has a book with all the black inventors, and it was real important for him to let me know that sometimes white people are given credit for some things that black men or women have done, have created or invented or whatever. And I can remember that my dad always instilled in me, "Be proud of yourself." But I never really had any problems. It's weird because now in college, my boyfriend, he's more aware of [it]. If we're in a room, he'll say we're the only black people in here, and I'm like, I didn't realize that. I mean, it's really weird and I guess it's because I grew up around a lot of white people and I really never felt out of place.
Interviewer: How did your church influence you? What did they teach about black history?
Taylor: My preacher went to Virginia Union University, so he's really up on being a strong black leader in the community. it's just about pride. It's not about anything like stand up for yourself, or this and that, it's just about being proud of who you are and I've never felt not proud of myself.
Interviewer: This has been all your life?
Taylor: Right. It's never like one time where it's just exploded or anything. It's always been the same.
Taylor: I can't really remember how old I was.
Interviewer: Did you learn about it in history class?
Taylor: Yes, I remember learning about it in history, but I can't really remember a particular time. But I can remember in 10th grade, I had World History or something like that, and we were talking about apartheid. At the time, I was reading up on apartheid. I knew all my stuff and the teacher--l really wasn't being mean or anything, I was like, well this and that and the other--and she said, "oh, well I see we have a militant in our class." And at that time, I didn't know what "militant" meant, and I went home to my dad and I said, "What does 'militant' mean?" She said to go look it up. I went and looked it up, and I was like, well, it's not a bad thing, but I don't think she meant it in a good way. From that point on, I just had to do well in that lady's class. She made me so angry because she didn't even know me but she was like, "Well, I see we have a militant in our class."
Interviewer: So you were learning and interested in apartheid. Did you ever compare it to what happened in this country 20 years ago?
Taylor: Oh, definitely, I compared it. It's the same on some levels, but it's the South African's country, whereas I am, as a black American, this really wasn't my land to begin with, you know what I'm saying. It's a little different. It's like their country and some people have just come in and just taken over.
Interviewer: Were there any racial tensions present when you were in school, not necessarily affecting you, but with other students?
Taylor: Oh, yeah. It seemed like every year it would be some big fight or brawl or something. Not really a brawl, but it just seemed liked some people would take a fight between a black person and a white person and make it racial.
Interviewer: How did that affect you? How did you feel about it?
Taylor: At the time, I really didn't care, but now as I look back, I thought it was kind of silly, because it really had nothing to do with racial tension whatsoever. They just didn't get along and so they fought.
Interviewer: Do you think they were just using race as an excuse to fight or do you think that the... ?
Taylor: No, I think the just didn't get along, and other people made it into a racial thing. You know, like hearsay.
Interviewer: So you think it could just as well have been two whites or two blacks fighting?
Taylor: Exactly.
Interviewer: You don't think it was caused by them being different races?
Taylor: I really don't. I don't.
Interviewer: I'm assuming you did, but did you have friends of a different race in high school?
Taylor: Yes, I did. I wouldn't say any of them were my close friends or my best friends or anything, but I did, I had lots of friends in high school that were white.
Interviewer: So the racial tension in your school really didn't affect you that much?
Taylor: Not really.
Interviewer: Are you familiar with the terms "white flight" and "black middle class flight."
Taylor: No.
Interviewer: I'm referring to Richmond City Schools. Well, 'white flight' is when the schools were becoming desegregated all the whites moved out so they wouldn't have to have their kids going... ?
Taylor: Oh, okay.
Interviewer: And then the middle class blacks moved their kids out to the suburbs so they wouldn't have to go to these schools with all [the lower class students] ... ?
Taylor: In Richmond city schools?
Interviewer: Right. In your opinion, has this movement had any impact on Richmond city schools, do you think? I mean everyone hears a lot about Richmond city schools.
Taylor: I'm not sure. I don't know if I could answer that well because at the time when that was happening, I was really young. So I'm not even sure. For all I know, my parents could have been. We moved out of New York because my dad was like, "She's not growing up in New York City." I mean, my dad could have been a part of the people that....
Interviewer: Were moving out?
Taylor: Exactly. "I don't want her to go to this rough school." I'm not even sure. I couldn't answer that.
Interviewer: I just want to close up some of your views on some things about segregation. It's often said that school desegregation has been one of the major social changes of the 20th Century. How would you respond to that statement?
Taylor: I'd have to say yes, because a lot of the racial tension comes from people not being around other races and they don't understand. Because I was a cheerleader, I was one of three black girls on a squad of 14, and all the rest of them were white. They got a lot of insight on us as well as we got a lot of insight on them. It just comes from not understanding, and I think that helps a lot of there. It helps it here, because some of my friends went to predominantly black high schools and they cannot relate with a white female. They can't sit and have a decent conversation because they don't understand, and some white people don't understand us.
Interviewer: What kind of things are most prominent in your mind about the history of segregation? Do you have any feelings about the issue? Does it ever make you angry when you think about it?
Taylor: Oh, yeah. I think it was sad because it just made people, like I said before, you don't understand the other race. So you just, therefore, assume everything and make up all these stereotypes that are just bogus. So, I think you tend to stick with your own, but it's something inside you that you should want to know about other people and other cultures.
Interviewer: How do you think your education differed from that of your parents?
Taylor: I think just the years [or time] difference. There's just more to learn now, but....
Interviewer: You said they went to segregated schools?
Taylor: Yes.
Interviewer: Do you feel like you had a richer experience from not going to a segregated school than they did?
Taylor: No, I wouldn't say that. I don't think I got a better education. I got a more diverse education. I wouldn't say that.
Interviewer: Do you think that it's better for a young person to go to a racially segregated school or an integrated one?
Taylor: I think integrated, because of the diversity, again. It's important because the world isn't just made of black people, and it's hard to pretend that it is and it's not. Sometimes they can't help going to a predominantly black school because of where they live. It might be more blacks in a certain area. But I don't think it helps them. I wouldn't say that it hinders them, but I don't think it helps them.
Interviewer: Out of all the things that have come out of school desegregation, what do you think has been the best feature?
Taylor: The best feature of integrated schools?
Interviewer: Yes. Maybe that the races do understand each other?
Taylor: Oh, I wouldn't say that [laughs]. I don't think the races understand each other. I think they just can relate. Maybe that's what I'm trying to say, they can relate or they can see that stereotypes aren't true. I mean, I'm not going to say that it's great being in an integrated school, but your knowledge, you're able to see everyday that black people are not different from white people.
Interviewer: What do you think is the worst thing that's come out of the school desegregation?
Taylor: The worst thing?
Interviewer: It can't all have been good. There are probably some bad effects of it. Can you think of any?
Taylor: My school was already integrated long before I even got there. Worst feature? I'm just not even sure. I couldn't answer that.
Interviewer: Can you think about or remember any leaders in your own immediate community at the city and state level? From what you remember, do you think these leaders helped or hindered people from working out race problems or social issues?
Taylor: Who stands out right now is Wilder because he's the Governor of Virginia. But how he.... Could you just repeat the [question]?
Interviewer: How do you think he's affecting racial issues? There still are some racial issues?
Taylor: Yeah. Like what, give me an example of racial issue now?
Interviewer: For example, maybe how... ?
Taylor: Affirmative action or something like that?
Interviewer: Something like that, yeah.
Taylor: I don't even know where he stands on affirmative action.
Interviewer: What do you think the black leaders are doing today to solve problems that black people might have? Do you think they are doing enough?
Taylor: I'm really not a political person. I don't really stay that much on top of politics, but as far as I can see, the black leaders of today, they are,concerned about their race. I think some of them are sometimes blinded by power and prestige, and they really forget where they have come from. But I'm just not even sure because there are so few that I know of.
Interviewer: Okay, that's good enough. I want to talk about the Brown v. Board of Education decision in 1954. When did you learn about that. Do you remember? Was it in history class?
Taylor: Yeah, it was in history class, I think probably like 5th or 6th grade. Desegregation has been on Richmond Schools or even county schools?
Taylor: The most important effect?
Interviewer: Yes.
Taylor: I think it's made people come closer together and realize that the stereotypes aren't necessarily true with everyone.
Interviewer: Do you consider, when you look at Richmond city schools and they are mostly black, do you consider them still to be, in a way, segregated?
Taylor: No, because anyone can go there if they live in that area. Especially with Richmond, it depends on where you live. I mean, you can go out to a school in the West End, and it will be basically white. Whereas, in Varina and the East End....
Interviewer: Do you think it might have anything to do with economics, that maybe the schools are segregated by class rather than by race?
Taylor: Of course, I think so. It is. That's the way I feel Richmond is. I mean I'm not sure about other cities, but Richmond I really think it's segregated by the economic status. That's just the way it is. If you live on Northside in apartments you are going to go to a school where everybody is basically just like you. Or if you live in the East End in Varina, you're going to go, I mean, everybody goes to the school that's in their zone. And wherever you live, your economic status, everybody is basically the same. As I was saying before, where I live, everybody was basically like me. I mean we have 7 churches, so everybody basically went to church. Everybody basically had the same amount of money, a little bit more, a little bit less, but everybody was still in that same tax bracket. So that's the way I feel it's segregated now. Like I said, I just got out of high school about 3 years ago, so I really couldn't say back when or whatever.
Interviewer: Do you think that desegregation has solved racial tensions in the schools? Do you think it's getting better all the time or... ?
Taylor: I think it gets better, but as it all comes back to me, I feel it's just your economic status, because it's just a fact that black people are not paid as much as white people, so there's always going to be black people in this particular school and they are not going to have as much money as the white people over on the other side of town have and they are going to have better facilities because of it. Because their parents are able to maybe, kick in a little bit extra for private this or private that. You know what I'm saying? It's all in how much money you make. And black people, sometimes, don't make as much money as white people so they are going to end up in schools ....
Interviewer: For the same job?
Taylor: Exactly.
Interviewer: Well, thank you very much for talking to us.
Taylor: You're welcome.
Questions
Index of Oral History Transcripts - African-American Richmond:
Educational Segregation and Desegregation.
http://www.library.vcu.edu/jbc/speccoll/vbha/
school/taylor.html
Last update 2/97 (rb)