[Jennifer Turnage was attending Virginia Commonwealth University at the time and was interviewed in a conference room in [VCU's] Oliver Hall. Ed.]
Interviewer: What is your name?
Turnage: Jennifer F. Turnage.
Interviewer: Your date of birth?
Turnage: [1958].
Interviewer: Place of birth?
Turnage: Richmond.
Interviewer: Street?
Turnage: Street now or at time of birth?
Interviewer: Street at birth?
Turnage: 29th Street. Do you want a full address?
Interviewer: No. Your father's occupation?
Turnage: [He] was a mailman.
Interviewer: Your mother's occupation?
Turnage: Cook.
Interviewer: How many brothers do you have?
Turnage: Two.
Interviewer: Sisters?
Turnage: Two.
Interviewer: Okay. Your education, did you attend kindergarten?
Turnage: No.
Interviewer: What was the name of your elementary school?
Turnage: George Mason Elementary. You gotta be kidding, you want me to pull up all this stuff from my childhood [laughs]?
Interviewer: Your junior high?
Turnage: Mosby Middle School. Some of these things I tried to forget [laughs].
Interviewer: High school?
Turnage: John F. Kennedy, when it was separate.
Interviewer: Meaning in segregation?
Turnage: Separate, meaning they've joined high schools now in Richmond. So, it's not just John F. Kennedy, it's John F. Kennedy/Armstrong or some combination.
Interviewer: Okay. The College you attended?
Turnage: Cedar Crest.
Interviewer: Did you earn any degrees?
Turnage: Bachelor of Arts, and in May 1992, [an] MSW, a master's in social work, here at VCU.
Interviewer: Your occupation?
Turnage: Student, full-time, and counselor, part-time.
Interviewer: Are you married?
Turnage: No.
Interviewer: Your religious affiliation?
Turnage: Protestant.
Interviewer: You don't have any children, do you?
Turnage: No.
Interviewer: No grand-children [laughs]?
Turnage: No. None that I know of [laughs]. [One of the interviewers then reads the Statement of Purpose to Ms. Turnage. The transcript picks up after the reading, which takes approximately 3 minutes of tape time. Ed.].
Interviewer: You have to bear with us. This is our first [interview].
Turnage: I'll be your guinea pig.
Interviewer: Let's see. You went to Kennedy High School, so what do you think is the most relevant place we should start with, your elementary experience or high school? Did you go to segregated elementary school?
Turnage: Yes.
Interviewer: You did? Okay, well then let's start there.
Turnage: [Laughs]. Let's see. What is it that you want to know?
Interviewer: What are some memorable moments? When you were in elementary school, was it a big fact--did you think about race, or were you just going to school?
Turnage: I lived in an all-black neighborhood and went to an all- black elementary school. The only "white people" I came in contact with were on television.
Interviewer: Where did you live when you went to elementary school?
Turnage: Church Hill. I grew up in Church Hill.
Interviewer: Where did you go to elementary school?
Turnage: George Mason.
Interviewer: Describe the images that you remember most clearly when you first started school.
Turnage: I think the first one was that my first grade teacher, who looked white, which was real different. I'm growing up in a black neighborhood and being around all black folks that look dark-skinned. She was very fair- complected, so that was kind of intriguing because she almost looked like the people on television. She was real gentle and real kind, because I was really scared.
Interviewer: Why were you afraid of her?
Turnage: Not afraid of her but afraid of going to school. In terms of point of reference, were the other kids that looked like me--they were my complexion, we all had nappy hair, we all dressed alike, and we looked alike. So there really wasn't anything to kind of compare that to. Television is' sort of fantasy, and you kind of think about the differences but you don't really pay that much attention to it.
Interviewer: Do you think that had an impact later on when you went to desegregated school in high school?
Turnage: Of course. It had a major impact. Not only from my perspective, but also from an educational stand point. In elementary school you kind of go along, you know, it's no big deal--you play games, you learn the three "R's", the basics. Your teachers and all, for the most part, look like you, except for that first grade teacher I had. The emphasis was not only on main stream education, but I got a whole lot of emphasis on black history. I don't really.... I mean, Afro-American is fine, but I grew up "black," and that's what we called ourselves. So, that's what I refer to. "Black" Americans were African-American. Again, I think the advantage was that I got a lot of history that kids are not getting now, they're not aware of. I was taught to take a lot of pride in myself. I was able to excel and got a lot of reinforcement for that. Those people, or the teachers I had, reminded me of family members and took a lot of time with us, especially if you put anything into it. I was always labelled a bright student so I got a lot of attention, a lot of special treatment.
Interviewer: This is within high school?
Turnage: This is within segregated elementary and almost [into] middle school. When I got to middle school that was really the first time that I went to school with white kids.
Interviewer: Did your experience change or did it remain the same?
Turnage: It changed. The focus was no longer on black history or black achievement or black progress. it was on main stream education. I got the basics about history--George Washington and all that stuff, but it wasn't until middle school that the focus changed from black history and achievement to white middle class society. I think, for a lot, the capitalistic impressions became more real, because you had to dress a certain way and you had to have certain clothes. I remember feeling inferior because my hair was nappy and it wasn't straight like white people.
Interviewer: Did something specifically happen, did someone say something to you?
Turnage: I think the messages from television started being more prevalent because in elementary school. You don't really think about some of those things, like the differences. Again, television was more fantasy, but when you get to middle school and you go into school with those, you're competing with other students who are not like you. Teachers started placing more emphasis on white kids -- white kids excelling. I remember when I got to high school, I was put in an advanced English class and the black teacher I had paid more attention to the white kids. She praised the white kids more than she did us. For the most part, we sat in the back of the room.
Interviewer: Even though the focus started shifting from the historical, or what you were given, the support system and that, was it still supplemented within your family structure? Within your neighborhood, did you receive a lot of support like before in elementary school, and if you did, did you still get that after the focus within your school changed? Did I make that clear?
Turnage: Home and church have always been the most important features for black families during the time I was growing up. You went to church and you didn't argue about going to church. You were involved in religious activities. The church's perspective, although Jesus was white with long hair, you still got a lot of encouragement, a lot of feedback and positives from the church and family, because once segregation was over, the only time you really got the strokes was from family and church. During that time, the church preached brimstone and fire and hell if you didn't follow the doctrines of the Bible. Yes, I would supplement it, but I think the feeling was that we were different now, and that came across real clear. For the most part, I think it was television and from some of the teachers I had.
Interviewer: So did that make the difference? How did that affect you in terms of... ?
Turnage: I felt inferior.
Interviewer: Did that affect your performance at school?
Turnage: In that one particular English class I ended up getting a "D".
Interviewer: And what were your grades before?
Turnage: "A's". I transferred because I felt it was the teacher, it was not me.
Interviewer: Where did you transfer, within schools or classes?
Turnage: Within class.
Interviewer: How did you do after you went to the other class?
Turnage: Fine. I got back to making "A's".
Interviewer: Did you attribute that to the teacher? Was the teacher white?
Turnage: No, this was the black teacher who was really placing emphasis on the white students and not the black students. She would tell us we were stupid. We were "not as good as" was the message that clearly came across.
Interviewer: I need clarification. So that was the black teacher?
Turnage: Yes.
Interviewer: Then you transferred to... ?
Turnage: Out of her class.
Interviewer: And into another classroom? Was that teacher black or white?
Turnage: I want to say white, but I really don't remember.
Interviewer: And you did well?
Turnage: Yes.
Interviewer: Why was that? Do you think it was because she...?
Turnage: Because there were two lessons I got from that. Nne was that, given that we were now in a different situation, if I wanted to continue to excel, it had to come from me. I couldn't look for outside reinforcements anymore. It had to come from me and my strength and what I wanted to accomplish. Two, being out of that environment where you're told you're inferior, you get to believe it. It's like learned helplessness--if you're told that you can't do something, you start to believe it. If you get out of that environment and start tapping into inner resources, as well as not get bombarded with those messages every day, then you can start to pick yourself up and go forward.
Interviewer: Did you have similar experiences, or was that one isolated experience? How was it socially for you? I Did you have a mixed group of friends, or you just had...?
Turnage: I guess I've always been the kind of person that attracted a variety of people. So I would say I had mixed friends, but priority was black. I learned a lot by going to school with white folks or people who were different from me, but I remember in that same English class, because that was the year at Kennedy that they were forcing white students to come into black schools, and there was a lot of chaos and a lot of trouble, and parents did not want to send their kids into black neighborhoods or predominantly black schools, and in that one English class, we had a discussion one day. I remember clearly this one girl who this English teacher really played favorites with and who stood up in class and said, "You know I didn't want to come to school because I thought all Negroes had nappy hair and they would be walking around stinking and eating watermelon."
Interviewer: This girl was white?
Turnage: She was white. We're talking 1972-73, and she actually said this in class and that she was afraid we would attack her, that we were inferior to white people.
Interviewer: Did she say where she got this from?
Turnage: From her family and from the messages that she was bombarded with. Also, in middle school, which was really the first contact I had, I remember being in gym class, and thinking, "I wish my hair was long, and blond and straight. I wish my skin was white." I remember clearly in gym class, we were in the locker room, and this white girl who was combing her hair. Her hair was nappier than mine. That's when it hit home to me [laughs], and it sounds strange, but that's when it hit home to me that they were not any better than I was. Maybe different, but not better.
Interviewer: Did you share [or] did any of your friends share the same sentiments that you were feeling? Did you all discuss it among yourselves, or were you just thinking you were the only person who felt this way?
Turnage: In high school, because there were other black students in that English class and we all used to talk about it among ourselves.
Interviewer: Females and males?
Turnage: More so females, because guys didn't really talk about it. More so the darker-skinned girls did because the lighter-skinned black kids got more preferential treatment. It was like a hierarchy where white kids had preferential treatment and were considered the smartest. Then the light-skinned kids were next and then us dark- skinned folks were just put in the back.
Interviewer: How did they let you know that? Was there a specific incident that said, okay, this is how it is, or was there just something that you picked up on?
Turnage: Well, if you walked into the classroom, you could look at the seating. The white kids were closer to the teacher, followed by the lighter-skinned blacks, followed by dark skinned.
Interviewer: Did the teacher arrange the seating, or was it ... ?
Turnage: She arranged it. We did not, she did.
Interviewer: This was throughout high school?
Turnage: That was that one English class. Again, this one English class really impinged. Now, I had white teachers in high school and the second year of middle school that treated us for the most part, I guess you'd say, equally.
Interviewer: So, how about all the rest of your classes, like in high school, did you change classes, and how were your other classes?
Turnage: Some similarities. Again, these teachers were not as verbal as this one English teacher was, but you still got the message that somehow you were different and inferior.
Interviewer: What were some of the messages, what would happen ... ?
Turnage: White kids got better grades.
Interviewer: Why do you think they got better grades?
Turnage: I think because they were white. I remember clearly book reports, there was no difference in terms of quality, but we got marked down lower if we answered a question differently than a white kid did.
Interviewer: And the teacher would tell you that or was that just among students?
Turnage: One particular professor [teacher], again, this one that clearly gave the most obvious messages, would do book reports right there in the class, where she would call you to her desk and ask you the questions. You could hear it. It wasn't like they were whispering it. They were at the front of the class doing it, and you could tell when somebody was bullshitting an answer. I mean, you could tell. You could tell if somebody reads a book and understands it and knows it, and somebody who doesn't. A bunch of us would sit there and listen to what they were saying.
Interviewer: When year in high school was this, your beginning, the middle, or...
Turnage: Tenth gr`de.
Interviewer: How did your high school career end? Did you see any differences? Did your grades improve your relationships with the other ... ?
Turnage: The only problem I had was that teacher who gave me obvious negative responses to us, and I went from an "A" to a "C" or a "D". That's when I knew it was time for me to get out, because my grades had never been that way. The lowest I ever made was a "B". So, I came out like 22nd out of 300 some people in class.
Interviewer: So, did your high school experience have a decision on where you decided to go to college?
Turnage: Yes and no. During high school I also demonstrated and protested and got involved in a lot of black organizations like the Black Panthers.
Interviewer: Within school or out of school?
Turnage: Outside of school, are you kidding? Schools would never have those things inside school [laughs], and I became very radical. That's where I ....
Interviewer: Your parents supported you?
Turnage: Hell, no [laughs]! They tried to talk me out of it because it was dangerous back then. I mean, when you stepped off a bus to do a demonstration, you had police officers in full riot gear with shotguns and police dogs. You'd have KKK standing around. I mean, the messages were really clear. This was not a thing....
Interviewer: So you were a Black Panther, you were a member of the Black Panthers?
Turnage: Let's say I participated, but I was never really a full fledged member because I was too young.
Interviewer: How old were you?
Turnage: We're talking high school, 16 or 17. I got involved in NAACP. I was all for black power because I thought we were being lost, and we were loosing a whole lot of ground in terms of rights, in terms of treatment.
Interviewer: So how did that affect your decision for the college you went to?
Turnage: Because for two years trying to struggle and get black people motivated to vote, to be active if they'll do the [inaudible] then nobody was really motivated to do so. That was very discouraging, and I decided that I was going to go for me. So I went to an all-white school. That was Cedar Crest College. It was an all-white school. There were 722 people of which 22 were black. This was a problem....
Interviewer: Why did you go there?
Turnage: Because I figured I'd get the best education. I'd learn all the rules of being white and how to compete in a white society. They also had the most money to give me to go to 'school [laughs].
Interviewer: I was about to ask you, was financial aid a factor back then. where is Cedar Crest College?
Turnage: In Allentown, PA. I wanted to get out of Richmond. I was really angry at the black people here. I was really discouraged and disappointed.
Interviewer: So, did that attitude change at all when you went to Cedar Crest?
Turnage: It reinforced the fact that white people were not better.
Interviewer: And how did you know?
Turnage: You have to understand that Cedar Crest was a private all-women school. They nicknamed it the "Finishing School" and the goal was to get an "MRS" degree with a big diamond ring! These were upper-upper middle class kids that I went school with. So, initially, some of the same feeling about feeling inferior came back, because I didn't leave the money, didn't have the fancy car, didn't have the long, straight blond hair. So, for the first year it was really a struggle. I cried a lot. My grades were not that wonderful, but again, I started pulling myself back up. The messages that reinforced that they were not better was that these were "girls" who were coming from rich families, who were having abortions every semester, they were drinking every night of the week until they dropped or passed out, they were having sex with anybody.
Interviewer: [Inaudible]?
Turnage: You're right, but back then--we're talking 1976--you know, when you grow up in a religious black family, you don't do those things. That was still the mode for the most part. Drugs were starting to enter the black community, but it was not as prevalent as it is today. The most I ever saw in high school was marijuana. Kids were smoking cigarettes and were drinking "mad dog twin twenty" [laughs]. But white kids were the kids who were doing the drugs and because the white kids got on the bus at the end of the school day and went home, we really didn't have a whole lot of interaction.
Interviewer: So, was there any racial tension, were there conflicts?
Turnage: In high school or college?
Interviewer: In college.
Turnage: Of course there were, but they were nice about it. In the North the difference is they say they're not prejudiced, but they are. They just mask it or it comes out a different way. In the South they tell you to your face they don't like you because you're black. It's open, the prejudice is open, at least that was the difference, I think, whereas in the North they would say, "oh, we like everybody," but then they would treat you differently.
Interviewer: Specifically, do you have any experiences?
Turnage: No, because .... Oh, okay. In sociology class we were talking about ....
Interviewer: This is what year?
Turnage: College. This was my freshman or sophomore year. We were talking about cultures and differences in people and I remember sitting there and the professor was talking about the "caucasoid" culture which was white.
Interviewer: And this was a white professor or black professor?
Turnage: This was a white professor, and she was saying how caucasoids have straight hair, they have blue eyes, they have a little nose and they have small lips. So, all the kids--at that time there were about 15 of us in class and maybe I was the only black--and then she started talking about Asians and what they looked like, the flat face or whatever it was, I don't remember. Then she started talking about the "negroid" and how the negroid is supposed to have a big nose, big lips and nappy hair. They all turned around and looked at me, and I didn't fit that. So, that was sort of [inaudible].
Interviewer: Did you all discuss that at all?
Turnage: Sure. My professor said, because they all looked at me being the only black, and my professor looked at me and said, "But Jennifer really doesn't fit that mold. I don't know why, but she really doesn't." I remember seeing [some] films about Africans out in the wild and how they were good at sprinting, but not good at long distance running and it had to do with being in Africa. So, again, the messages were there.
Interviewer: So, how does that experience coupled with high school, how has that affected who you are today as a citizen, as a person, as how you relate to people who are whites and blacks? Are you still angry?
Turnage: Sometimes.
Interviewer: Like when?
Turnage: Like when I hear people talk about blacks who are all the ones receiving welfare. That was another message that came out in that sociology class. But the professor was really good. She said there were more white people just by sheer numbers than there are blacks; therefore, there were more white people on welfare. So, I still hear those messages or when I read the Richmond newspapers which are loaded with slanderous stuff about blacks, when I hear the Japanese talk about the blacks being the reason why the United States is falling as a power, when I hear that the Japanese have little black dolls for "toys." I still get angry when I hear that black folks are unemployed and breaking all the banks because we don't work and we don't want to work; I get angry when I hear the news reports that say a black person did this, a black person did that, but when it's a white person, no color is mentioned at all.
Interviewer: Would you have preferred to stay in a segregated school? Do you think that would have been more beneficial?
Turnage: My first reaction would be "yes," because you get a sense of pride that you won't get in a desegregated school. But then there is a piece of me that says "no," because white schools get more money for education; therefore, you get a better education, quality-wise. I can't answer for that today, and I don't even know if that is accurate. It probably isn't, but that's just the feeling I have.
Interviewer: When you say quality or better quality, do you mean in terms of resources?
Turnage: In terms of resources, financial resources, in terms of opportunities....
Interviewer: What kind of opportunities?
Turnage: I think it you're going to apply for a job, if I came from Cedar Crest College which is an upper middle-class all-white school, and I was competing with somebody from Virginia State, I know for a fact that I'd probably get looked at first.
Interviewer: Even though your GPA may be lower than that person?
Turnage: Even though my GPA may be lower, I think I would get pulled first.
Interviewer: Do you think it's the same way in the Northern schools or do you think this is a demographic [geographic?] issue?
Turnage: I think it's all over. I don't think it's just one location. I know. I have a sister in DC who works with the process of hiring and she was trying to get me a summer job one year and there were a lot of folks applying. She put in an application for me, we have different last names so they didn't know she was my sister, and there were two applications from blacks schools and there were applications from white schonls. She said that mine got pulled because of my being in a white school.
Interviewer: So, when things like this happen, what do you do?
Turnage: I get angry, but at the same time, if I'm benefiting from it, all I can do is be angry and try to change things from within. There's not a whole lot I can do to change the general society as a whole, except be a "-model".
Interviewer: Do you think you can't change because of the lack of success when you were active, radical with the ...
[End of Transcript.]
Questions
Index of Oral History Transcripts - African-American Richmond:
Educational Segregation and Desegregation.
http://www.library.vcu.edu/jbc/speccoll/vbha/
school/turnage.html
Last update 2/97 (rb)