[This interview grew out of the earlier interview with Malcoma L. Washington in which James, her husband, became involved in parts of that interview. His interest in the project, as well as his knowledge of local history, prompted a separate interview with him. Ed.]
Interviewer: Birth date?
J. Washington: [1928].
Interviewer: Place of birth?
J. Washington: Richmond, Virginia.
Interviewer: The street?
J. Washington: 921 St. Peter's Street.
Interviewer: Your father's [name]?
J. Washington: James E. Washington, Sr.
Interviewer: His Occupation?
J. Washington: He is deceased.
Interviewer: While he was living?
J. Washington: He was a laborer while he was living.
Interviewer: Mother's occupation?
J. Washington: Housewife.
Interviewer: How many brothers and sisters?
J. Washington: Five brothers and one sister.
Interviewer: Primary [grades] for you... ?
J. Washington: Baker Street [Elementary] School.
Interviewer: Junior high?
J. Washington: It was Booker T. Washington [Junior High School].
Interviewer: High school?
J. Washington: Armstrong High School.
Interviewer: College or university?
J. Washington: Virginia Union university.
Interviewer: Degree?
J. Washington: B.S. degree in Commerce.
Interviewer: occupation?
J. Washington: Accountant.
Interviewer: Date? 43 years, was it not?
J. Washington: Yes.
Interviewer: Religious affiliation?
J. Washington: Presbyterian. We're different [laughs].
Interviewer: Two boys? Your children?
J. Washington: Yes.
Interviewer: And grand-children, five.
J. Washington: Five, right.
Interviewer: I guess I'll hold the mike. I need to read the State of Purpose. This is Susan Campbell and I'm interviewing James Washington. The Statement of Purpose for this interview is: [The interviewer then reads a portion of the Statement of Purpose, but since Mr. Washington was already familiar with it, this was dispensed with quickly. The interview resumes after approximately 45 seconds of tape time. Ed.].
Interviewer: First, I'd like to talk to you about your early childhood experiences. How were neighborhood institutions, such as church, important to you as a child?
J. Washington: Churches were important in the black community because that was the only place you could go and really meet friends and socialize. There were so many places in Richmond which were closed to you [the blacks] and church seemed to be the alternative.
Interviewer: Think back to your childhood playmates, did you have playmates of another race or ethnic minority or identity? If so, what kinds of things did you learn from them?
J. Washington: No. I lived in a very segregated neighborhood with the exception of the corner stores where the owners, for the early part of my childhood, lived above the stores. So, if they had kids, we played with the kids f or the period of time that they lived there. But, they very soon moved out to other neighborhoods. Most of my playmates were black in a segregated neighborhood.
Interviewer: What were some of your earliest memories of childhood?
J. Washington: Let me think a few minutes about that one. Go on to the next question.
Interviewer: Go back in your memory to the first day at school. What was the year and what was the school?
J. Washington: It was Baker Street [Elementary] School and I think the year was 1933. Yes, 1933, and my mother carried me to school. At that time we had kindergarten where I was enrolled. Ms. Peterson was the kindergarten teacher. Needless to say, it was a segregated school, all black. I was afraid like most of the other kids there for the first time--some were crying--l was not crying. Other kids came with an older sister or some other relative.
Interviewer: What influence did your family, such as your parents, brothers or sisters, have on your outlook of school?
J. Washington: Startling with my mother, she had a very significant impression on me because she began reading to us at a very early age. I learned so much from that. The member of my family that contributed to my education, I'd say, would be my sister. She is three years older than I am. She was very smart. Everything that she, learned in school, she recited it at home and I would learn from her. Every play that he was in, I learned her part. Every lesson that she learned, I learned her part. I was able to read before I went to school because of what she taught me. No less to say, she ended up being a teacher [Laughs].
Interviewer: How about your classmates? Do you think they were like you, and how were they different?
J. Washington: I think my classmates liked me. I can't think really of any enemies that I had. I was....
Interviewer: How were they different from you?
J. Washington: As far as liking me?
Interviewer: Different from you as opposed to... ?
J. Washington: I think I was a little more studious than the majority of the fellows in my class. For that reason, they liked me. I wasn't ostracized because of that because whenever they wanted to know something, they would come to me for the answer [laughs].
Interviewer: Regarding your teachers, how did you feel about them and what did you received from them?
J. Washington: I don't think enough can be said about the teachers who taught me in elementary school, who taught me in junior high, and who taught-me in high school. They were very dedicated. The welfare and well being of the kids were uppermost in their minds. They went out of their way to see that we got the best they had to offer. They made the most of the meager, facilities that were available to them. I can never say enough about my teachers.
Interviewer: Can you remember anything in particular about the lack of resources available to you?
J. Washington: Well, I think the school building, first of all, was lacking. We did not have a cafeteria there. Everyone had to bring lunch which meant that you never had a hot meal during the middle of the day. You had sandwiches. I think they had a place where you could buy a cartoon or bottle of milk. As far as ... books go, a lot of time the class books were ragged for the most part. I can't recall getting a new class book in elementary school. In high school I did get some.
Interviewer: How would you compare your circumstances at home and at school with other children when you attended school?
J. Washington: Well, the children in my neighborhood and surrounding area, I guess I was on a par with them. We were all poor. Probably in some other neighborhoods, where parents had a little more money to spend and more money to give the children different things, the situation would be different. But, everyone in my neighborhood was poor. We didn't really realize that at the time because we had food to eat, we had clothes to wear, we were going to school, and we had a roof over our heads. But, in the larger picture, when you look at the overall city of Richmond, we were poor.
Interviewer: How did people in your neighborhood feel about school and did this influence you?
J. Washington: The neighbors were very supportive. You didn't dare spend the day out of school or play "hookey" as they called it then, because the neighbors would let the parents know--they would know it before you got home, that you did not go to school that day. They would stop and tell you in the street that you must stay in school because that was the only way you were going to be able to better yourself, to be better than they were, or to be able to get a better job than what they had at the time. They were very supportive of us.
Interviewer: How did you feel about your education in comparison to youngsters in other schools in Richmond?
J. Washington: As I said, I went through a completely segregated elementary, middle and high school in Richmond. Compared to the schools that were opened for whites, I think we were short-changed a little. I remember talking to some kids later on who went to John Marshall and Thomas Jefferson. It seems that there were courses available to those two schools that were not available at Armstrong. I have here a report card, my first report card from Armstrong, if you would like to see that.
Interviewer: Definitely.
J. Washington: In fact, I have a lot of them, but this is the first one. That is a list of the courses they were offering at Armstrong High School in 1941. 1 think you interviewed this lady here, Susan B. Lewis?
Interviewer: And these courses were also offered. So, all these courses were offered?
J. Washington: Yes. That's the complete curricula for Armstrong High School in 1941. As you can see, there was no trigonometry, no calculus--those types of courses there. Physics, I think....
Interviewer: Did you take physics?
J. Washington: No, I did not. That was just my first year there.
Interviewer: Okay.
J. Washington: You were graded (8-L) 8-Low, and B-High (8-H). I was at 8-L at this particular juncture.
Interviewer: That's amazing.
J. Washington: Perfect attendance. My mother had to sign.
Interviewer: This is interesting. You have pictures.
J. Washington: And here are subsequent cards.
Interviewer: How was your level of schooling in middle [junior] high school different from elementary school?
J. Washington: I know that the course material was much stronger than it was in elementary school. The teachers were a little more stern as far as making you get your homework and making you do what was expected of you in school.
Interviewer: So do you feel like they pushed your potential, they helped you?
J. Washington: Yes, they did.
Interviewer: What was your most important memory of high school?
J. Washington: I guess my most important memory of high school was graduation, getting out of there. Not that I had a difficult time [laughs], but I was just so thrilled. I was the second one in my family to finish high school. My sister preceded me by two years, but neither my mother nor my father had completed high school. I think I was sort of overjoyed of being the second one to do that in my family.
Interviewer: If we can consider your high school classmates for a minute, can you compare and contrast how you felt about your classmates?
J. Washington: There were highs and lows; there were kids in my class, and I will show you some pictures of them,
J. Washington: He was a long-time teacher at Armstrong High School who retired.
Interviewer: His name?
J. Washington: Reverend Chester Arthur Lindsey. This was the last white principal at Armstrong, Mr. W.W. Townsend. Below him is a picture of George Peterson, who was the Assistant Principal, and who became Principal upon Mr. Townsend's retirement. He served for a long time as principal of Armstrong High School.
Interviewer: Do you remember Mrs. Lewis?
J. Washington: Yes. Mrs. Susan B. Lewis was my history teacher during my first year at Armstrong High School.
Interviewer: Do you remember anything about that class?
J. Washington: I remember that she was a very sincere and dedicated teacher, and she pushed you to your utmost. I also know that she still remembers me after 50 years, today.
Interviewer: That's fascinating. You want to point out a few things to us?
J. Washington: Yes, I do. The president of the senior class is John Howlette. He is now Dr. John Howlette, an optometrist in Richmond. He was also a member of the City of Richmond School Board. This is his wife, high school sweetheart--they married. She works in his office now.
Interviewer: Let's talk about your high school experience. What did you like or dislike about high school?
J. Washington: I can't think of anything I really disliked. I was one of the few individuals who thoroughly liked school. I was very seldom late. I stayed late to do things, to go to the libraries. There's on other thing I did in high school. My grandmother was the maid at Armstrong High School and I remained after school sometimes to help her clean the rooms. So, I spent a lot of time in the school. In fact, before I got to Armstrong I knew a lot of the teachers, because I was leaving Booker T. and walking one and a half blocks down the street to Armstrong to help her in the evenings. So, I was introduced to a lot of teachers at Armstrong before I got there.
Interviewer: When you were in high school, were you aware of ability grouping or tracking of students into different curricula, such as vocational or college prep?
J. Washington: Yes, I was. I took a business course because at the time I did not see how I would have been able to go to college. So, I took courses like bookkeeping, typing, business math--those types of things. Other kids who saw college in their future took a college preparatory course which consisted of the foreign languages and higher math.
Interviewer: Did you have, what I would consider, a ... counselor or a career counselor while you were in high school?
J. Washington: No, we did not. Our home room teacher served that purpose.
Interviewer: How would you compare yourself with the people in your school who weren't academically oriented?
J. Washington: Well, I've seen some in later life and I am sort of appalled at their appearance. They have let themselves go. They've had mediocre jobs from the time that: they either stopped school or maybe struggled to finish. I sort of pride myself in having accomplished a little more than that.
Interviewer: We talked a little bit about the courses you took in high school. what did you expect your high school education to do for you?
J. Washington: I expected my high school education to prepare me for a decent paying job. That wasn't my sole purpose, but that was my main purpose in completing high school.
Interviewer: What courses,turned out to be the most valuable to you?
J. Washington: It's hard to,pin-point any one particular course, but looking back over the years, I would say English, History and math were about the most important courses ... I took in high school.
Interviewer: Did you participate in any post-secondary school before you went to Virginia Union?
J. Washington: No, I did not.
Interviewer: So, would it be all right if I asked you how you were able to go to Virginia Union?
J. Washington: That's a good question [laughs]. I finished Armstrong High School in 1945. The war was coming to an end then and the economic situation was a little better in my family. I was fortunate to get a job after I finished Armstrong High School, working for the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, a civil service job. I worked that summer and decided I wanted to go to college. I saved my money during that time so, when September rolled around, I had enough money to enroll in Virginia Union University.
Interviewer: That was the first semester, and then after that?
J. Washington: That was the first semester. I continued to work every evening after school. Now, that sounds like it was a gigantic venture, but tuition at Virginia Union was only $300 a year at that time. If you made the Honor Roll, you got $50 each semester as a scholarship. In effect, you could attend school for $200 a year. If I may say something else here, that was one of the advantages of the predominantly black schools--well, they were all-black schools then--they made education available for students with little or no wealth.
Interviewer: And Virginia Union was a private school?
J. Washington: Yes, it was and still is.
Interviewer: What impact did Virginia Union have on you personally or professionally?
J. Washington: I would say that it changed my life. It made me realize that I could achieve much more than I had originally thought while I was going to high school. I found out that if you work hard, you could accomplish anything you wanted. I'm just ... that I didn't work harder after I left Virginia Union, because I look at some of my colleagues who did, and they are now lawyers, doctors, you name it, and all it took was work.
Interviewer: Were you a practicing accountant right after you graduated from Virginia Union?
J. Washington: When I was in the latter part of my junior year at Virginia Union, my accounting professor operated a bookkeeping service in Richmond, Smith Madden Bookkeeping Service. He asked me if I was interested in working afternoons in his business. So, for a year and a half, I worked as an accountant for the Smith Madden Bookkeeping Service. Upon graduation, Mr. Smith asked me if I was interested in taking a job in Warsaw, Virginia, because Dr. Alex B. James, who was the pastor of a church in Warsaw, contacted him and said that a canning and lumber company needed an accountant, and they were wondering if I'd be interested in taking the job. I did and stayed there for 20 years [laughs].
Interviewer: Whatever happened to Mr. James?
J. Washington: Dr. James became president of Virginia Union University. I think he is presently the chancellor of Virginia Union University.
Interviewer: How did you feel about your instructors at Virginia Union?
J. Washington: They were superb. For them to dedicate their lives to teach poor black students when I think the majority of them could have gone on further at larger colleges and more salary, but I think they felt that they had a mission to teach and train young blacks, and they did an excellent job of it.
Interviewer: Was that an integrated faculty?
J. Washington: Yes, the faculty was integrated. In fact, the president, just before I went there, was the last white president of Virginia union. Dr. Ellison, I believe, came in 1945. I'm not sure of the years, but the faculty was integrated.
Interviewer: Was the university growing while you were there or was it a small university then? I'm not really sure.
J. Washington: Virginia Union had a student body of about 600 when I was there, and I think it has grown from that point to about 1300. During the war years it suffered because a lot of the prospective male students went off to service. After the war, they began returning and the student body began to enlarge.
Interviewer: Was the student body mostly male at that time?
J. Washington: No, it wasn't. I would say it was about 50/50. In fact, I think they pointed out that they had two female dormitories there and only one male dormitory on the campus. it is possible that there were a few more females than there were males.
Interviewer: Looking back now, what type of education do you think got overall?
J. Washington: I think I received an excellent education from Virginia Union University.
Interviewer: And from high school?
J. Washington: And from high school, throughout. I think the teachers got the best out of the facilities and the equipment that they had to work with.
Interviewer: Compared to youngsters or college students today, do you think it was better or worse? Can you compare?
J. Washington: To make that comparison is rather tough. You're talking about different times and different circumstances. No doubt, facilities are better today and maybe the majority of the faculty are better prepared. But, whether the dedication from the heart is there today, I don't know. I don't think anything can surpass the dedication of the teachers of 50-60 years ago.
Interviewer: If you could change the schools, what do you think you would change?
J. Washington: Are you talking about changing now or... ?
Interviewer: Yes.
J. Washington: Let me back up. Are you talking about elementary schools, high schools, colleges or what?
Interviewer: Think about your influence on the education of your children or your grand-children. What's the most important educational consideration you would pass on to the younger generation?
J. Washington: Stay in school. I think they have seen their mother and what she has accomplished. They've seen what I have accomplished, meager as it is, and I think it has given them some incentive to stay in school and to also to see that their children get an education.
Interviewer: In your opinion, what are the biggest misconceptions people have today about the schools in your time?
J. Washington: The biggest misconception that they have about schools in my time? I would have to say that a lot of people didn't think we were getting the education we needed because we did not have the facilities and because certain things were denied us. But, it has turned out that students, say from Virginia Union, went on to grad school to compete with kids who had finished from, say the University of Richmond, the University of Virginia, and William & Mary, and so on. On the same level, Union, in no way, compares to UVA [University of Virginia] or William and Mary and all those other schools.
Interviewer: Speaking of ethnic or racial experiences, while you were in public school, were you made aware of black history, including its outstanding events and important leaders.
J. Washington: To a limited degree. In high school, I think there was one black history course, we had one history book from which we learned black history, and that was The Negro in Our History, by Dr. C. G. Woodson. There were no other courses being taught. In elementary school we had a thick geography book that looked at different sections of the world. There was a small section on Africa, specifically the Belgian Congo. Emphasis was put on the Belgians who were controlling the country at that time, and all the Africans were pictured as just savages. I can recall the picture of Little Bimbo now, that's the name of the African boy in this particular episode on Negro history. In Our World Today, I think it was, a big blue geography book.
Interviewer: How do you think that affected your perceptions of your roots or your ancestral background?
J. Washington: I think we were sort of brain-washed. We were unaware of a lot of things that were existing in the world. We were unaware of a lot of accomplishments that blacks had made over the years. There's a saying that blacks are not business-minded, they don't know how to operate businesses, and those types of things. Those things weren't brought home to us, but when we went to the neighborhood we saw differently. Here again, I have something else I would like to show you along those lines.
Interviewer: That would be excellent.
J. Washington: As I said before, there were a lot of misconceptions about the accomplishments of blacks, that they were not business-minded, that they did not know how to operate businesses. I have before me a publication called the Southern Aid messenger. It was published in 1908 by the Southern Aid Society, which was the forerunner of the Southern Aid Life Insurance Company, the oldest black life insurance company in the country. If you would look through this book, you will see near the end, ads from a lot of businesses that blacks owned. Hotel strings, ...this was a hotel in Lynchburg, Virginia; Dr. Thomas Stephen, surgeon-dentist; R.H. Merchant, Counsellor-at-Law; R.B. Sampson Saving Parlor.... You see a whole spectrum of goods and services provided by blacks, and this was only about 43 years after slavery. The most remarkable thing about this....
Interviewer: These aren't just in Richmond. it looks like they're from all over.
J. Washington: No, because Southern Aid Life Insurance Company had offices throughout the State of Virginia. I think the most outstanding thing here is an ad for the "True Reformers," let's see. . . , have I passed that? Richmond Hospital, we had a hospital going at that time, this is in 1908 now. Another bank, Capital Mechanic's Bank, Richmond. The St. Luke Penny Savings Bank, that's significant because that bank is still in existence today as Consolidated Bank and Trust Company.
Interviewer: And Maggie Walker was the president?
J. Washington: Yes, Maggie L. Walker, whose home is now a national landmark on Leigh Street.
Interviewer: Do you remember hearing anything about Maggie Walker when you were growing up?
J. Washington: That was all we heard about when we were growing up. There was an organization called The St. Luke's Society. The building still stands at the corner of St. James and Baker Streets now. it offered an ideal for black kids. You would go there and the people would take time with you to ...
J. Washington: Yes, I do. I think all of us were following the case very closely and we were very pleased when the Supreme Court did finally outlaw segregation in the public schools.
Interviewer: Do you remember how you felt about that decision?
J. Washington: I felt that it was a just decision. I felt that the Supreme Court had finally vindicated itself for some very unpopular decisions in the past. Going back in history to what I think is the most infamous decision that the Supreme Court has ever handed down, was the Dred Scott decision in which it was stated that the black man had no rights that the white man was obliged to respect, or something to that effect. Later on there was the Plessy v. Ferguson case, where the separate but equal doctrine was stated to be the way to go in public schools, or in black/white society. I think the Supreme Court finally saw the light when they came up with the Brown v. The Board of Education decision. Also, more recently here in Richmond, a case has been overturned which sort of set the time table back. This was, I guess you'd say, an economics- based case, Croson v. The City of Richmond, which dealt with quotas and set-asides. Back in the early eighties, in order to give minority businesses a certain portion of city business because they could not compete with the larger firms, they came up with a quota system. But there was some objection to this quota system and the Supreme Court, while it did not declare the minority business utilization plan unconstitutional, they did remand it back to the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals which overturned a previous decision in which it was upheld. I don't know if I'm making myself clear an that, but the case was heard in the District Court which upheld the City of Richmond; it went to the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals that upheld the City of Richmond; and then it went to the Supreme Court, but in the meantime had ruled on a case in Michigan which had nothing to do with economics, but which dealt with quota systems as far as teachers go in Michigan. So the Supreme Court said, consider the Richmond case in light of our decision in Michigan. So, you know what that meant The court said, we said that it was unconstitutional in Michigan to have quotas for teachers. We; are saying, in effect, that it is unconstitutional to have quotas for businesses in the City of Richmond. So that particular minority business utilization plan was declared unconstitutional. I guess the Supreme Court has some good days and some bad days. [Laughter].
Interviewer: It sounds like there's still sort of a battle pushing for more equality.
J. Washington: Yes. The battle still goes on, and since the Supreme Court is the court of last resort, there's no question as to why there is concern about the appointments that our various presidents make to this court. Roosevelt appointed people to the courts who did things the way he wanted, and since that time you've had Eisenhower, Nixon, and Bush to appoint people to the court to change things the way they want; well, not to change things, but to rule in favor of their opinions.
Interviewer: Regarding changes for equality, what do you feel were some of the most important changes during your lifetime?
J. Washington: I think the single most important change was when all laws supporting segregation were stricken from the books, records or whatever, of every state, city, and county in the United States. Where the black man has an equal opportunity to proceed and try to achieve as much as anyone else, it's really up to him as to how far he can go. There are no laws which say, you cannot go here, you cannot do this, you cannot go to this school, you cannot go to that school. It's open. To me, that was the single, greatest change in my lifetime the removal of all laws f rom the books. You can't change people's minds for there are many people who still believe strongly in segregation on both sides, blacks and whites. You can't change those by legislation, but you could get those laws off the books, and this was what was done.
Interviewer: Do you have something in mind that you feel still needs change?
J. Washington: I think it has turned into a battle of economics now. while there are no laws which state that blacks can't accomplish, can't get jobs, can't do ...
[End of Transcript.]
Questions
Index of Oral History Transcripts - African-American Richmond:
Educational Segregation and Desegregation.
http://www.library.vcu.edu/jbc/speccoll/vbha/
school/washj.html
Last update 2/97 (rb)